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  • I recently re-downloaded the Michaels app while I was in the Michaels checkout line just so I could apply a $5 coupon that the register failed to read from the app anyway.

    There's your problem right there.

    Does this author not understand how dumb this makes him look? You downloaded an entire app, in the checkout line, for a $5 coupon on something you were likely overcharged for in the first place?

    Even when you’re lacking in a store-specific app, your apps will let you pay by app. You just need to figure out (or remember, if you ever knew) whether your gardener or your hair salon takes Venmo, Cash App, PayPal, or one of the new bank-provided services such as Zelle and Paze.

    If only there was a universal form of payment that you could keep in your pocket and pull out to use anytime with very minimal interaction. Maybe a card or something.

    Apps are all around us now. McDonald’s has an app. Dunkin’ has an app.

    Why are you using them?

    Every chain restaurant has an app. Every food-delivery service too: Grubhub, Uber Eats, DoorDash, Chowbus.

    Why are you using all of them??

    Every supermarket and big-box store. I currently have 139 apps on my phone. These include: Menards, Home Depot, Lowe’s, Joann Fabric, Dierbergs, Target, IKEA, Walmart, Whole Foods

    Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!

    This is literally the 2024 equivalent of your mother having a dozen toolbars in Internet Explorer because she kept clicking on coupons.

    Just go to the place, pull out your credit card, pay the cashier, and leave. How the hell does any functioning adult blame the technology when they have this little self control?

    • People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don't consider that the prices are artificially inflated. They don't need the sale item. And in the long run they'll probably end up paying more when the stores know their purchasing habits and have A/B tested them enough to know how to provide as little as possible while charging as much as a customer can stomach.

      If a coupon requires an app, I don't by that item. Especially when it comes to groceries. When it comes to store cards, most let you use a phone number instead of scanning the card. So plug in a random number at checkout. You can often get a hit on the first try. Then pay in cash. Dirty up someone else's data and give these stores nothing on you. Seriously, if people keep giving in, it's guaranteed to get worse. First the store card, then the app, what's next?

      • Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash.

        Whoa. What group do you run in? Literally everyone I talk to on a daily basis is.

        I actually just thought through an average day, and the people I talk to regularly. I've had conversations with each and every one of them over the past few months about how we've had to make major changes to our lifestyles in one way or another because the money is going out faster than it's coming in. We're all solidly middle-class, for whatever that means anymore.

        So what circles are you in where not everyone is looking for every possible discount they can get? Saving $5 on groceries means I can afford another gallon and a half of gas. I can't afford to be principled about privacy when those are the stakes. But it doesn't mean I have to like it.

        • I think age / location / profession have a lot to do with what socioeconomic circles people run in.

          Not to mention luck of the draw.

        • My circle of friends are also not strapped for cash. I’m confused as to how that’s so baffling to you. We’re very much NOT upper class.

          • We’re very much NOT upper class.

            I kinda think that not being strapped for cash is being upper-class.

            Upper-class: Always having enough

            Middle-class: Always having almost enough

            Lower-class: Never having enough

            • "Class" is determined by income, "enough" is determined by spending habits. You could make $50k and have positive cash flow, or you could make $400k and always be strapped for cash. The higher your income is, the more options you have, but also the more exposure you have to more ways to waste your money.

              This is a great video about this. Basically:

              • lower class ($34k median income, $3400 net worth) - ~25% of population - these are those who truly struggle with emergencies, and flirt w/ the federal poverty line; net worth is pretty much nothing (often negative!); main goal is get an emergency fund to break the cycle of poverty
              • middle class - three categories (lower, middle, upper)
                • lower ($44k median income, $71k net worth) - ~20% population - identify more with middle-middle class and tend to get into more debt than necessary by keeping up with the Joneses, and could be financially stable w/ some discipline
                • middle ($81k median income, $159k net worth) - ~20% - financially stable, most of assets are in home
                • upper ($117k median income, $307k net worth) - ~20% - passive income and compound interest supplement income; some live paycheck-to-paycheck due to lifestyle inflation, but some can do really well with investments
              • upper class - two categories (lower and upper)
                • lower ($189k median income, $747k net worth) - ~10% - specialized professions; most people can get into the lower upper class with discipline (10% savings rate on $65k salary => $787k investments by age 50); little pressure from everyday expenses
                • upper ($378k median income, $2.5M net worth) - ~5% - some college grads working as employees, but a lot of these are business owners

              At each level, I see two types of people:

              • lower class
                • savers - those who scrimp to be able to cover emergencies that would otherwise screw them over; these can move up to the middle class
                • "normies" - those who get screwed over and over and stay in the lower class
              • middle class
                • savers - less scrimping here, but need to budget and avoid "keeping up with the Joneses"; some discipline can establish a solid retirement
                • "normies" - debt payments prevent any kind of progression, and workers are terrified of job loss because the house of cards could come tumbling down
              • upper class
                • savers - become really wealthy (upper upper class)
                • "normies" - some upper class folks are "strapped for cash" because they can't keep their spending in check, but most have enough income to recover from even the worst mistakes

              By this metric, not being strapped for cash is possible for pretty much anyone in the lower-middle class and above, and even those in the lower class could get there by stabilizing their finances so they can take some risks to increase their income (i.e. night school, quitting a bad job for a better job, getting CDL and financing a truck, etc). On the flipside, being strapped for cash is also quite possible at pretty much any income level, and I've heard plenty of stories about lawyers and doctors having trouble keeping up with debt payments because they got caught trying to keep up with those wealthier than them.

              So I don't think "strapped for cash" is a good metric for economic class, income is, because you can make choices that can cause you to be paycheck-to-paycheck at almost any income level, as well as choices to maintain stability at almost any income level.

              • not being strapped for cash is possible for pretty much anyone in the lower-middle class and above, and even those in the lower class could get there by stabilizing their finances so they can take some risks to increase their income (i.e. night school, quitting a bad job for a better job, getting CDL and financing a truck, etc).

                It's easy to say "stabilize your finances!" but on a practical level it's almost impossible to do when there's no wiggle room. You can't stabilize any finances if you're taking out payday loans in order to pay rent every month. It's not like there's any money to be put into savings if you're making $2,000 a month but putting $1,000 toward rent, since most people rather like to eat.

                I'm thankful to not be in that situation, personally, but it's not something you can just wish your way out of. Even your examples require a certain level of financial breathing room that people don't tend to have when every dollar is spoken for. You can't finance a truck if your DTI is already high. You can't take CDL training or night school if you have to work two jobs just to keep food on the table.

                I've heard plenty of stories about lawyers and doctors having trouble keeping up with debt payments because they got caught trying to keep up with those wealthier than them.

                But if you get into that scenario, you can just sell the supercar or downsize your house or whatever. That's not really an option for people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck.

                So I don't think "strapped for cash" is a good metric for economic class, income is,

                I think income divided by local cost-of-living could be, maybe.

                At the end of the day, irresponsibility with money is still a problem for sure. And keeping-up-with-the-joneses is probably a problem for some people. I'm not one of them, and none of the people I know are either, but I suppose some people have that issue. In my experience, though, most people who are struggling financially are not in those situations. They're just trying to keep their heads above water.

                • You can’t stabilize any finances if you’re taking out payday loans in order to pay rent every month

                  Oh, I 100% agree. But in many cases, taking payday loans is a symptom of other serious problems in someone's spending patterns and not necessarily an income problem. Maybe the car payment is too high, or perhaps they're paying too much for food. Whatever it is, that needs to get fixed to end the need for emergency cash.

                  If you're in the lower middle class or higher, there's no excuse for it IMO. If you're in the lower class, you'll need to get creative (government assistance, co-living, etc).

                  you can just sell the supercar or downsize your house or whatever

                  You say that, but in many cases, they still end up net worth negative. The problem here isn't with income, but spending, and you're not going to sell your way out of a spending problem.

                  I think income divided by local cost-of-living could be, maybe.

                  Certainly. Economic classes are very much location-dependent. If you live in NYC or SF, you'd need to adjust the numbers a bit, likewise if you live in rural Mississippi or something. And there are calculators available online to help with that.

                  most people who are struggling financially are not in those situations

                  Pretty much everyone will say that though, because people are pretty bad at noticing the excesses in their own spending. If you're not standing out as being "weird" for spending so little, then you're probably "keeping up with the Joneses," because the average American is pretty irresponsible.

                  This is a pretty broad brush stroke to be sure, and I'm sure there are plenty who are legitimately struggling despite a conscious effort to cut costs. I'm just saying that many, if not most, people who aren't "financially stable" could make room in their budget to get financially stable, but instead end up throwing a ton of money down the drain due to interest.

                  • Do you actually know anyone who's in this situation?

                    In my experience, it's not a choice they've made. Some people are bad with money, to be sure. I'm related to a few. But they don't typically just decide they're going to blow August's grocery budget on a new wardrobe; they have a job opportunity dry up after they already moved for it, or they had a messy divorce because their spouse was abusive, or they poured a ton of money into some career training that turned out not to give them any real, marketable skills. Some bad choices, some unavoidable occurrences, some terrible luck, but nothing that crosses the line to them being frivolous.

                    Thirty years ago, a family could weather one or two of those, no problem. My dad got laid off not too long before I was born, and he was the sole earner for our family. He got hired fairly soon after, but in the meantime we were fine.

                    I don't live a whole lot different than my parents did then. We have more kids than they did, but I'm in a higher earning potential career than he was. Plus, my wife and I are both employed. Yet if either of us were laid off, we would not last long on savings.

                    One thing I've learned as I get older: yeah, people are irresponsible. But the generations are pretty much the same, and trying to pretend otherwise is a good way to get clicks on your article but a bad way to actually get any meaningful insight about people. So if our generation is having more widespread problems than our parents' generation did at this age, it's probably not because we aren't as responsible as they are. Something systemic probably changed.

                    • Do you actually know anyone who’s in this situation?

                      That said, I do admit I have limited personal experience with people in this situation. However, I personally choose to live like I'm a level below my means so I have a cushion in case something goes wrong. And one of my life goals is to leave my career early to actively help people with spending problems at all income levels to break that cycle, hence why I'm so interested in this.

                      they have a job opportunity dry up after they already moved for it, or they had a messy divorce because their spouse was abusive, or they poured a ton of money into some career training that turned out not to give them any real, marketable skills

                      At the risk of sounding callous, this sounds like symptoms of the same underlying problem: lack of diligence. And no, I'm not saying they didn't "work hard enough" or they should "pull themselves up by their bootstraps," I'm saying they could have mitigated these problems by making different decisions:

                      Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

                      • Seneca

                      I fully appreciate that many people don't have the training or experience to avoid manipulation by others, which is a common thread here, so we absolutely need to improve our education system. But blaming others for your choices is a recipe for failure and isn't going to help you move forward.

                      I have made my fair share of mistakes, some of them have cost me a lot. But I refuse to blame others and instead choose to point the finger back at myself, and I think that has made all the difference. And that's what I'm getting at here: you can't change your present, but you can make choices to change your future.

                      Thirty years ago, a family could weather one or two of those, no problem. My dad got laid off not too long before I was born, and he was the sole earner for our family. He got hired fairly soon after, but in the meantime we were fine.

                      That set us back a couple of years, but we were already ahead because we were living below our means. Fast-forward to today and we're back to being ahead because we continued to live below our means.

                      Here's an interesting article about household debt over time, which goes back to 1995 (so almost 30 years). A quote:

                      The authors found that household liabilities rose relative to income and real interest rates mostly declined from 1995 to 2010, which led them to suggest that an increase in loan supply relative to loan demand happened during that period.

                      I read this as: debt got cheaper, so people got more debt. So people are in more debt today, but they're paying about the same to service that debt. So people are spending more than they used to, but they're able to do that because borrowing rates are lower.

                      The solution, then, isn't necessarily that people don't have enough income, it's that their expectations of what that income can buy is out of whack. In my experience, people largely paid for things w/ cash 30 years ago, whereas today paying with credit is a lot more common. People don't save up to buy things as much, and instead buy now pay later. So the real issue here is discipline, at least for those in the middle class and above.

                      Something systemic probably changed.

                      My argument is that systemic change is access to credit, which has gotten a lot easier in the last 10-20 years where you can get a new CC or personal loan on your computer instead of actually having to go talk to someone at a bank. That means being irresponsible with money is easier, which I think encourages more people to do it.

                      So I do think younger generations (including my own, I'm a millennial) are more irresponsible with money and have higher expectations of what that money can buy than previous generations. Over the last 30+ years, real wages have increased consistently (i.e. after taking inflation into account), and we're back to the peak of the early 70s before the stagflation of the 80s. Yet people claim we're getting poorer, so I have to take that as people having unrealistic expectations instead of an income problem.

                      • You and I have had remarkably similar lives, actually.

                        • myself - parents paid my tuition, I paid everything else (rent, food, books, etc) by working through school making a little over minimum wage (I'm long past this stage)

                        Same. I was a cashier and then a pharmacy tech.

                        Both sides of my family are generally fairly successful (middle class and upper middle class), with most of my cousins having completed a 4-year degree.

                        Close. I think about half of my cousins have a degree; the other half went into trades.

                        My family is largely quite successful (siblings are professor, accountant, actuary, and software engineer), I work in a field with a lot of successful people,

                        —same, but—

                        and my neighbors are largely fairly successful (mostly middle middle class to upper middle class).

                        Here's where we differ. My neighbors are not poor, but the neighborhood is not yet completely gentrified. We have some K12 teachers, some construction workers, a few military people, alongside some people in more white collar high-earning-potential professions.

                        That said, I've had neighbors have cars repossessed, coworkers struggle w/ credit card debt, and people making more than me struggle with a house down-payment

                        Same. And it's happened enough that there's no way I can attribute it solely to bad decision making.

                        (and I bought in my late 20s making much less than I do now),

                        Same, though I had access to down payment assistance.

                        That said, I do admit I have limited personal experience with people in this situation.

                        Thank you for being honest about this. I would personally suggest that you talk with some people who are in situations like you're talking about. Some of them knowingly made poor choices that led to their current struggles, but more often they were dealt one major blow or a series of minor blows at a time of high risk.

                        However, I personally choose to live like I'm a level below my means so I have a cushion in case something goes wrong.

                        I say this without malice: many (if not most) people who are struggling have never been able to make that choice meaningfully. I'm glad to have been able to, but it's not common.

                        And one of my life goals is to leave my career early to actively help people with spending problems at all income levels to break that cycle, hence why I'm so interested in this.

                        I wish you luck in that, I truly do. Please consult with people who have been in the situations you're talking about before you draw up a wonderful, shiny plan for their finances.

                        At the risk of sounding callous, this sounds like symptoms of the same underlying problem: lack of diligence.

                        Sometimes, maybe. But the point I'm making isn't that no one ever makes mistakes. It's that one or two such mistakes can end up catastrophically for people who don't have far to wiggle. A person who is generally attentive to their finances but makes a couple of bad calls before they have a safety net can end up on the back foot for the rest of their life.

                        And no, I'm not saying they didn't "work hard enough" or they should "pull themselves up by their bootstraps," I'm saying they could have mitigated these problems by making different decisions:

                        Hindsight being 20/20, you're always going to say you'd make different decisions when you have perfect vision as to the outcomes of the bad outcomes. But to avoid these in the first place, you'd have to have perfect view of the future.

                        job opportunity dry up - always have a backup plan; as The Money Guy host likes to say, make sure to include a "doo doo plan" in your projections (i.e. what you'll do if the plan doesn't work out)

                        I've been in a position several times where the job opportunity I accepted was the only one I was offered. Having a "doo doo plan" is great, if you have multiple options to begin with.

                        messy divorce - don't just marry for love, make sure your goals align and you truly know who you're getting involved with; divorce can still happen, but you can usually avoid abusive people by listening to advice from family and friends (i.e. those who aren't blinded by hormones)

                        I agree with this to a point, but (hyperbole) nobody has ever gotten married truly thinking that they didn't know their spouse well. Even family and friends can be wrong.

                        career training - look at expected outcomes from whatever the training is, not just the handful of success stories; as in, don't blindly trust what the people giving the training claim, verify it by looking at market data or asking someone in the business

                        The case in point that I'm thinking about for this one was a person who entered a front end web development training program with the promise of job search assistance upon graduation. Reviews of the school were good, personal anecdotes from graduates were good. It was only after the program that my friend discovered the cracks in the process (as he was falling through one). Due diligence was done, to the satisfaction of most reasonable people. In this case, I think he was taken advantage of. Speaking of which...

                        I fully appreciate that many people don't have the training or experience to avoid manipulation by others, which is a common thread here, so we absolutely need to improve our education system.

                        100% agree with you here.

                        But blaming others for your choices is a recipe for failure and isn't going to help you move forward.

                        I apologize, I was unclear about this. None of the people I've mentioned are complaining or blaming others for their current state. Every single one of them is actively working to improve their situations. I'm saying, as a person who watched the trajectory of their lives from the outside, they weren't the primary cause of their financial troubles.

                        I realize that it sounds like I'm leaving myself out of that, and I suppose I am blaming others here. But to be clear, I'm probably the most well-off of the people I'm talking about. In comparison to the people I'm talking about, my concerns are very minor. We'll be ok, and we're already working on improving our situation. And even I am not blaming any one person; I think the problem with my finances lies in historic inflation, a global pandemic, and corporate greed.

                        I have made my fair share of mistakes, some of them have cost me a lot. But I refuse to blame others and instead choose to point the finger back at myself, and I think that has made all the difference. And that's what I'm getting at here: you can't change your present, but you can make choices to change your future.

                        ...if you know what the future holds.

                        [Ok, Lemmy is saying that this is too long, so I'm going to try to split my reply up.]

                        [1/2]

              • Add the 1% there. Generational wealth people. Private jets, multiple mansion homes, etc. They're far above the upper class. Totally different plane of existence from everyone else.

            • sugar summed it up nicely.

              We make a decent amount, but we’re priced out of buying a home right now. We have a solid amount of savings and stocks, and our only debt is my partner’s student loans which aren’t a ton. We just don’t think about money day to day.

              If we want something, we just get it. But we don’t really want things, so we mainly just spend money on food and booze. And Steam games, but only if they’re 50% off or more.

              We’re probably lower-middle to middle-class. Lower now, maybe mid-mid when we finally can buy a house.

      • People who are proud of getting a good deal via an app break my heart. Most folks I know like that are not strapped for cash. They just like the feeling of getting a bargain. They don’t consider that the prices are artificially inflated.

        Thats why Prime Day is such a big deal.

        People think they are getting awesome deals cause its 50% off, are not going and checking price trackers to see the item had a HUGE price spike a week before Prime Day.

        But they think they got 50% off and that gives them that massive dopamine rush, and that encourages more spending.

      • The Lowe's app is actually really handy. You can look up any item and it will tell you the exact isle and bay it's in for your store. No more wandering around or hunting for an employee to ask. It's the only store app I actually keep on my phone.

    • Honestly, if there were a simpler way to sell their personal data to retailers for people who want to do so, that probably would be more appealing for the users.

    • This just in: Author/professor/CEO whose books/classes/company are about manipulative technologies… voluntarily installs manipulative technologies.

    • Why the fucking hell do you need any of these?!

      Yup, I have none of them, and I still get a pretty good deal.

      Most of my spending is at Costco, and they send me a paper ad once/month, which I'll go through and add relevant stuff to my list (in a separate app). But even if I don't get a discount, their prices are still better than most (e.g. eggs are normally $2.50 or so per dozen, whereas the grocery sells them for $4+). If I'm going to spend more than normal, I'll check a few sites before going out (or ordering online), and sometimes I'll ask the store clerk to price match to avoid multiple stops. The one place I have an app for is on my old phone, and it's for Target because they actually have decent sales sometimes. I don't check very often, but I will when I'm going to go buy a bunch of gifts for birthdays or holidays or whatever (and again, I'll check multiple sites first), and I use the 5% off w/ the Target debit card.

      I literally don't bother with any loyalty programs. My grocery store's loyalty program isn't needed for discounts, it's only for a discount on gas at some gas station I don't go to (and isn't even next to the store). There's another with a better loyalty program (they have their own gas stations), but they're further away and it would cost me more in gas to go there than I'd save.

      So if we need something, we'll look for coupons or whatever before setting out, we don't use an app or loyalty program. I'm pretty sure we end up wasting a lot less money this way.

    • I stopped reading the article after it just became a list of apps. Felt like a thinly veiled ad, and if not, annoying af.

      • tiktok brain

        • Sorry, I don't know what that means, I don't have Tiktok. I'm talking about the whole article being vapid, just multiple paragraphs that are lists of apps:

          It could be Class Dojo, Brightwheel, Bloomz, or TalkingPoints. It could be ClassLink, SchoolStatus, or PowerSchool.

          Is it like brand name dropping to keep people's attention or something?

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