7mo ago

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- Being anti Zionists is not being antisemitic.
  I'm ok with Jews, I'm not ok with Israel committing a genocide.
  
  Zionism is simply Jewish nationalism
  That's a big part of the problem. Ethnostates and theocracies are invariably oppressive towards any inhabitants who are not of the dominant ethnicity or religion. Israel is no exception and shouldn't be treated as one.
  the right of self determination for the Jewish people in the form of a democratic state
  An Apartheid state, which a formalized ethnostate by definition is, is inherently anti democratic and opposed to the self determination of everyone except the ruling people. Self determination through oppression of others is never and will never be legitimate.
  
  I hope you’re also against Palestinian nationalism then
  That's not comparable and you know it. Nationalism without a nation is an ambition. Ethno-nationalism while in control of a nation containing other peoples is oppression and, in extreme cases like the South Africa of the past and present day Israel, Apartheid.
  But to answer the question you thought you asked: yes, I am against the violently theocratic government philosophy of Hamas.
  Also compare the number of Arabs with Israeli citizenship to the number of Jews with PA citizenship.
  Arab doesn't equal Palestinian and Palestinian doesn't equal Arab. To conflate the two is bigotry and ignorance.
  
  That's not true. Especially not when you count the settlers living on stolen land inside the West Bank and planning to do the same in Gaza.
  
  They are not citizens
  They by definition CAN'T be because Palestine doesn't have any citizens. Because it's occupied territory denied nationhood by its occupiers, Israel.
  Do you think a Palestinian state in the West Bank would accept Jewish settlers as citizens?
  Jewish people in general? Yes. Jewish (or Christian, or Muslim etc) SETTLERS stealing their land on behalf of an occupying force, though? That's another kettle of ballgames entirely.
  "Settling" land already owned by someone else is colonialism and theft, not peaceful coexistence.
  
  Sure. I hope you’re also against Palestinian nationalism then.
  "If you're opposed to minority rule, then I hope you're also opposed to majority rule." What? Simply give everyone in the region equal voting rights, as is their right as human beings, and the resulting state would be a Palestinian one.
  
  I'd definitely be against a hypothetical Palestinian ethnostate, but that doesn't exist so it doesn't really seem relevant. We're discussing an ethnostate that actually does exist, which sucks. Can we keep on that topic?
  
  I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you under the false impression that an ethnostate is a state in which only one group is allowed to exist and all others are killed on sight?
  The 20% of non-Jewish citizens of Israel are second-class citizens living under the oppressive rule of an ethnostate which explicitly primarily serves the interests of their ethno-religious ruling class.
  
  I don't know anything about the structure of the government of Denmark or Poland but I will say that I don't have a particularly positive view of their societies or peoples from what little I have seen to judge them by. What is the point of this latest non-sequitur? Are you capable of speaking on the topic at hand or do you only ever reply with left field references to other existing things or hypothetical things that do not exist?
  
  The problem is that Jewish nationalism (aka Zionism) is what brought us here in the first place. So yes, I am against Zionism. I am ok with a two states solution but Israel doesn't want that.
  And no, I won't accept that the blame is only at Hamas for what they did in October, because that's ignoring all the illegal occupation that Israel has been doing for several decades.
  
  We are here because Arabs didn’t accept Jewish immigrants and refugees as their neighbors.
  Settler spotted, the former ottoman empire was actually a relative safe haven for Jewish communities, for centuries. It wasn't until the British decided to set up a ethnostate with a vested interest in attracting new settlers and stealing land that suddenly the neighbors started to have an issue. Israel itself foments antisemitism on purpose to make Israel a more compelling destination for Jewish people abroad.
  
  You should probably include links to sources when saying stuff like Israel promotes antisemitism.
  I agree that this happens, but it's counterintuitive to the average liberal and so needs to be backed up by strong evidence. I'll try to google some myself later
  
  That's a fair point, can try to track down too when I'm not on my phone.
  edit: taken from this paywalled substack:
  Israel is a genocidal settler-colonial apartheid state set up by the European and North American powers to colonize the middle east. Even early zionists like Theodor Herzl understood Israel in these explicitly settler-colonial terms. Here is Herzl speaking in the 1800s, when Palestine was still Ottoman territory:
  If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could offer to resolve Turkey’s finances. For Europe, we would form part of a bulwark against Asia there, we would serve as the advance post of civilisation against barbarism.
  So Theodor Herzel felt not only that European people were entitled to Palestine over the people already living there (including Ottoman Jews), but that the presence of "civilized" Europeans in Israel would form a "bulwark" (forward operating base(offensive, not defensive)) against Asia, which entire continent Herzl racistly characterized as "barbaric."
  Herzl was born on May 2 nd , 1860 in Budapest, Hungary to a family of German speaking assimilated Jews. His father, Jakob, was a wealthy businessman and the young Theodor was expected to enter politics or engineering by his parents. In a sense, he did not disappoint, as Herzl was destined to become the father of political Zionism. While Herzl never saw his Jewish state during his lifetime, his ideology remains so influential that even today he is considered the father of Israel.
  Herzl’s birthday is a holiday in Israel, his grave is a national monument, the organization he founded is still active today and the largest mountain in the country was re-named in his honor. It is not an exaggeration to say that Herzl and his ideology remain central to Zionism.
  As a young man, Herzl was a fanatic Germanophile. He believed that if Jews simply tried hard enough, they could become “Germanized” and shake off what he called “shameful Jewish characteristics.” Herzl viewed German culture and language as inherently superior to that of the reviled working-class Yiddish speaking Jews. At first, he believed that Jews should be Germanized, arguing that Eastern European Jews were so "savage" and backwards that they must learn the very concepts of beauty and nobility by studying the works of authors like Goethe and Shakespeare. He initially envisioned his Zion as a German colony, and waxed poetic about importing German culture to the orient. However, as time went on, Herzl increasingly started to believe that Jews could not and should not assimilate into Europe, and the only solution to the “Jewish question” was the complete removal of all Jews from Europe. If all of this sounds anti-Semitic, that is because it is. Herzl’s Zionism is fundamentally based in antisemitic notions about Jewish incompatibility with gentile society. Herzl dedicated the rest of his life to his goal of a Jewish state. In 1897, he founded the World Zionist Organization, a big tent coalition of Zionists dedicated to creating a Jewish state by any means necessary. As time went on, and the "Labor" Zionist wings were increasingly persecuted by Herzl, the organization moved farther and farther to the right. Given what Herzl believed in, this is understandable. Unlike the Zionists of today, who must pretend to have some respect for the charade known as international law, Herzl was quite open about his plans.
  In the view of Herzl, Israel was explicitly a colonial project, and he toured the capitals of Europe trying to drum up support and funding for his cause. Herzl cast a wide net, he was not terribly concerned with who supported him, or why. He gladly worked with some of the most extreme antisemites on earth. After many attempts to get a meeting with Tsar Nicholas II by promising to solve Russia’s “Jewish problem”, Herzl finally got a letter saying Russia would support hisproposed deportation of the Jews. He kept it for the rest of his life, treating it as one of his most prized possessions.
  At the same time, Tsarist forces were carrying out reactionary pogroms all throughout the so-called Pale of Settlement, the home of most of Europe’s Jews. In 1903, the same year Herzl was in correspondence with the Tsar, over seven hundred pogroms took place in Ukraine and Moldova alone resulting in the murder of thousands of Jews. In many cases, the pogroms were incited by the Tsar’s secret police and in others the guilty were simply granted clemency by the government. Herzl knew all of this, and his continued support of the Tsarist government was controversial even inside his own movement.
  In the end, it was all for nothing. The Tsar did not keep his word and Herzl was perfectly willing to sacrifice thousands of Jews in exchange for empty promises. Sadly, the genocidal tendencies inside Zionism would only accelerate as the movement grew. The Tsar wasn’t the only one who used Herzl as a tool. Starting in 1896, Herzl actively worked with the Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II. After a meeting with the Sultan’s advisors in the Levant to discuss strategy, Herzl threw his support behind the Armenian Genocide, a crime so vile it had cut off the Ottomans from European loans. Herzl believed that he could jump in to fill that gap, offering to pay off the empire’s increasing debts using funds raised from European Zionists in exchange for permission to start a colony in Palestine.
  Although he found almost no support even inside the World Zionist Council, Herzl spent 5 years touring Europe, speaking, raising funds and writing articles in support of Turkey’s extermination of the Armenian people. Herzl cast the crumbling empire as a historical ally of the Jews and one they should support. He called the Ottomans civilized and decent people, justified in their actions due to the allegedly backwards and violent ways of the subhuman Armenians. He was even awarded a medal by the Grand Vizier in Istanbul, in commemoration of his loyal service to the Ottoman Empire.
  In 1901, Herzl finally got his long-awaited meeting with the Sultan, who rejected his proposal out of hand. Once again, Herzl was perfectly willing to sacrifice thousands of lives for words on paper. Today, Herzl’s "civilized" slaughter is viewed as an act of genocide by all credible historians and groups as diverse as the United Nations, the United States Government, the European Union, the Anti-Defamation League, and the World Jewish Congress, who specifically called it “the blueprint of the Holocaust.” With his options dwindling, Herzl even turned to Cecil Rhodes, the openly white supremacist founder of the unrecognized apartheid state of Rhodesia to ask for his advice and blessing to colonize Palestine. Although his efforts amounted to nothing, the ideological connections remained, and the state of Israel became a close ally of Rhodesia. At one point, Israel was one of the only countries willing to sell weapons and licenses to its fellow apartheid states. Israel even collaborated with apartheid South Africa on its nuclear program, a direct violation of international law which was never punished.
  "You are being invited to help make history. It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews... How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial" - Herzl in a letter to Cecil Rhodes
  At best, Herzl represents the sort of reactionary, callous “realpolitik” that the state of Israel still embraces today. At worst, he was a genocidal racist willing to support even the vilest crimes toadvance his movement. When the rest of his actions are considered, it appears the latter is much more likely. Herzl’s actions are those of a man who did not just sit idly by and watch genocide happen, but rather those of a man who viewed the genocide as a cornerstone of his ideology. The simple reality is Theodor Herzl was a reactionary antisemite who openly called for the extermination of the Jews of Europe while simultaneously calling for the colonization of Palestine by European Jews. He viewed both of these ends as codependent upon each other.
  While this sounds contradictory, this is only because most people have simply accepted the historical premises of the Zionist movement without question due to decades of well-funded propaganda.
  
  Herzl’s antisemitism was rooted first in a deep, intense classism. In order to understand this fully, we need some historical background. Herzl was a German speaking assimilated Jew from a wealthy merchant family. He did not experience any of the hardship which defined the interaction between Jews and Gentiles in Europe. Rather, Herzl’s family willingly sold out their fellow Jews for money and status, using the poor Yiddish speaking Jews as a sort of human shield to protect themselves from the predictions of their German allies. When it came time to create his “Jewish” state, Herzl sought to portray himself and his handful of wealthy allies as “the good ones” while the rest of the Jews were little more than vermin to be exterminated.
  The vast majority of the Europe’s Jewry were Yiddish speaking workers and peasants who were restricted by law from entering most professions to keep them poor and easily exploited. The Yiddish Jews had been expelled from all their previous homes in Europe and were eventually chased into the eastern part of what was then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but today is part of seven countries, mostly Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus.
  The commonwealth was much friendlier to Jews than most of its European counterparts, and so the region was quickly settled by Jews fleeing oppression elsewhere. After Poland was defeated and partitioned in 1791, most of this territory and the people living there came under the control of the violently antisemitic Russian Empire.
  Tsarina Catherine’s regime had recently conquered former Ottoman territories in Crimea and the Black Sea region. These lands were combined with the recent acquisitions from Poland to form what became known as the Pale of Settlement. Jews were allowed to settle and do business in this land, but nowhere else in the empire. All other Russian Jews were violently expelled from their homes and sent to settle the Pale. The plan was that the Jews would serve as a buffer against Ottoman expansion while keeping them away from the Orthodox heartland of the Russian Empire.
  Their lives were not easy, as the Pale of Settlement was more of a trap than a gift. Jews were not allowed to own land inside the Pale, meaning that to live and do business they had to rent fromgentiles. They were also kept at first from the major urban centers of Kiev, Sevastopol and Yalta, forcing them into agricultural work in rural areas. In practice, the system was slavery in all but name. Jews were often forced to buy or rent tools at usurious prices to work land that did not belong to them, thereby keeping them permanently bound in debt. This was the origin of the Kulak, a parasitic class of peasant landlords which emerged specifically to exploit Jews and siphon off their wealth into the coffers of the Tsar.
  Despite all this, a strong Yiddish speaking Jewish culture existed in the Pale. They had a long, rich heritage, maintaining their own traditions and culture even in the face of centuries of violent repression. They refused to assimilate as Herzl’s family had, remaining proudly and defiantly Jewish. It was these people, the so-called “Ostjuden”, in whom Herzl saw all the lies of antisemites made flesh.
  Herzl even borrowed their language. In 1897 he released an unhinged antisemitic rant entitled “Mauschel” (a German racial slur so vile I will not translate it), where he branded the long suffering Ostjuden with the same irons their tormentors had. To Herzl, the Mauschel was everything he was not. His type of Jew was the only real Jew, while the Mauschel was nothing more than vermin.
  The Mauschel was simultaneously lazy and greedy. The (rich, assimilated) Jew was hard working and charitable. The Mauschel was stupid and backwards, while the Jew was educated and cultured. The Mauschel was “something unspeakably vile” while the Jew was upright and upstanding. Most importantly, the Mauschel was a weak and pathetic creature who had meekly gone to the slaughter, while Herzl’s Jew was a mighty warrior who would never submit.
  The only problem is, Herzl’s new Jewish man was not real. The Ostjuden were, and at a population of around five million, they constituted 40% of the world’s Jews and around 80% of Europe’s. Therefore, to call for the extermination of the so-called Mauschel was to call for the extermination of the Jews. Herzl’s ideology assumes that everything antisemites said about Jews is true, and the only solution is their complete extermination. Just like the fascists that would come after him, he sought to create a new type of man, the so called “Israeli” from the ashes of the old.
  Herzl particularly despised Yiddish, the diaspora language of the Ostjuden. At first, he favored its replacement with German, then the modern reconstructed Hebrew. Since Herzl was a classist first, he viewed Yiddish and its speakers as being inherently uncivilized and inferior, once again finding himself in alignment with his fellow antisemites.
  Regardless of what antisemites believe, Yiddish was and is a vibrant, living language with a rich history tied intrinsically to the history of its many speakers. The history of Yiddish very much is the history of the Jews. For centuries, the Yiddish was the voice of the masses of Jews, rather than elites such as Herzl. It was in Yiddish, not Hebrew or German which the Jewish people recorded their hopes and dreams, reflected on their joy and sorrow and more importantly, resisted continued efforts from the European powers to break their culture via assimilation. Yiddish has a long history, a vast corpus of work and like the Jews themselves, it is no lesser for its roots.
  
  Herzl had an interesting plan for the destruction of the Jews, he wanted to sell them out to antisemites to fund his operations. Not only would this liquidate the property of the Jews of Europe, but their deaths could then be used as propaganda for the Zionist movement. This would, of course, constitute an act of genocide, but for Herzl that was a small price to pay to create his promised land. This strategy of collaboration to fan the flames of antisemitism and thereby spur immigration to Israel has remained a cornerstone of Israeli policy, as has the violent hatred of any Jews who do not conform to Herzl’s particular idea of what an “Israelite” should be. Herzl said, quote:
  It would be excellent idea to call in respectable, accredited anti-Semites as liquidators of property. To the people they would vouch for the fact that we do not want to bring about the impoverishment of the countries we leave. The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies.
  While Herzl died in 1904, his antisemitism outlived him. The state founded with his ideology has remained a violently anti-semetic state. The Zionists who came after Herzl took his antisemitic ideology to it’s logical extreme. One of the greatest ironies of the Zionist movement is that despite basing their entire existence on the Holocaust, the Zionists of the time were enthusiastic supporters of Adolf Hitler and his final solution to the same Ostjuden “problem” Herzl decried.
  When the Nazis came to power in Germany and began their long planned and promised extermination of the Jews, in full view of the world and it’s people, Zionists the world over viewed the Nazi regime as the vindication of their ideology. Now, there was finally a European leader who preached the same vile antisemitic doctrine as Herzl. As their goals regarding the extermination of the Ostjuden were aligned, most Zionists actively supported the Nazis. Even the “mainstream” Haganah movement actively collaborated with Adolf Eichmann, the architect of the Holocaust. Not only did they negotiate with Hitler to achieve Herzl’s dream of deporting the Jews, but some of them also even took up arms in support of the Reich.
  One of the largest of such groups was a Zionist terrorist organization called “Lehi”, which was split from the slightly less radical Irgun by Avraham Stern in 1940. The split was caused byStern’s support of Hitler over the British, who ruled the mandate of Palestine at the time. Stern’s reasoning was simple. Hitler was an enemy of the “Mauschel”, not the Israelis. Lehi contacted the Nazis almost immediately after their formation. The two sides met in Beirut, where Lehi delivered a letter from Stern outlining his plans. He proposed that Lehi actively enter the war on the side of the Axis, saying “the German worldview and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people” were closely aligned.
  “The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a totalitarian national basis, in an alliance relationship with the German Reich, is compatible with the preservation of German power.”-Avraham Stern
  The Nazis ignored the letter, but that was not enough to dissuade either Lehi or Stern. Even with nothing in return, they still took up arms in support of the Reich, hoping that they could prove themselves worthy to their fellow fascists through propaganda of the deed.
  Lehi embarked on a years long terrorist campaign, marked not only by assassinations and bombings (including a letter bombing campaign targeting the British government) but also the brutal depopulation of dozens of Palestinian settlements, perhaps an intentional echo to the violence their Nazi heroes inflicted on the Ostjuden in Europe. Although Stern died fighting for Hitler in 1942, the gang was not snuffed out until 1948. Despite the Israeli government’s public condemnation, most of Lehi was rolled into the security structures of the new state, where they formed the nucleus of the Mossad. One of Lehi’s senior commanders Yizhak Shamir would even serve as Israel’s 7th prime minister. It seems that Lehi’s ideology was not a problem for the mainstream Zionists, only their targets.
  Sadly, the Israeli government’s violence towards Jews did not end there. With the fascists deputized into brutal secret police force to rival their heroes in the Gestapo, the so-called Jewish state still violently oppresses any Jew who does not fit their very particular ideal of what an “Israeli” should be.
  As Zionists began to settle Palestine, they encountered an unexpected problem that threatened to derail their entire project. Namely, there were already Jews living there. The bedrock of the Zionist ideology is the idea that after the destruction of the Second Temple of Jerusalem in 70 CE, all the Jews either left or were expelled from the Levant, leading to over a millennium of wandering Europe in search of a new home. The reality is not so simple. While there was a mass expulsion of Jews, many of them remained in the Middle East. Of those, a great deal remained Jewish while others converted to different religions, such as Christianity or Islam, ironically making them Palestinian in the eyes of the fascist Israeli state.
  When the Europeans began to settle Palestine, these so called “Mizrahi” Jews (a racial slur created by the antisemitic Zionists to describe them, while they referred to themselves simply as Jews) posed both a practical and an ideological problem for the fascists. Not only did they have land that the European settlers wanted, but their very existence was proof that Zionism was based on mythology rather than reality.
  The response from the settlers was about what you would expect. Just like their idols in Germany, the Zionists put Jews into ghettos. This time, however, the Zionists were inspired not just by Herzl and Hitler, but by the antisemites who came before them.
  The strategy regarding the Mizrahi is virtually identical to the strategy used by the Tsar to oppress and rob the Ostjuden with Herzl’s support. After the Palestinians were murdered or expelled, the fascists used Mizrahi as their shock troops, settling them by force into the newly stolen land. However, the Mizrahi were not allowed to own the land, only to live there. They were considered squatters under the euphemistic “Abandoned Property Law” and could therefore be extorted and evicted at will. This created a system wherein the European settlers could exploit a permanent Jewish underclass, thereby creating almost the same dynamics as existed inside the Pale of Settlement. While all of this was going on, the Europeans also embarked on policies of cultural genocide against their fellow Jews, stealing Mizrahi children to be raised by “civilized” Europeans. Despite the Zionist entity openly admitting to this policy, no action has been taken whatsoever.
  None of this was accidental, it was simply the logical conclusion of an inherently antisemitic ideology. Policies of systematic discrimination towards the so-called Mizrahi Jews continue to this day. The racism against the original Jews by European settlers is so severe that Israeli schools were segregated by law until 2010.
  As we can see, the Zionists are masters of projection. When they accuse their enemies of a crime, it is likely because they are doing the same thing, and simply assume their enemies are as brutal and racist as they are. Even when they accuse Hamas of supporting ISIS, they are speaking as a country who openly supported the Islamic state.
  These policies have not changed, even today the Zionists are openly carrying out yet another genocide in Gaza. As always, they make no effort to hide their crimes, rather they brag and bluster endlessly about them. Today, rather than seeking the support of Adolf Hitler and Cecil Rhodes, their patrons are men like Joe Biden and Rishi Sunak. The core ideology of Zionism has not changed, only the language used to justify their crimes. Zionism has been a fascist ideology since it was invented by Theodor Herzl, and it remains one today.
  
  Crazy how they didn't respond to this part of the thread.
  
  That was a lot of work, thank you for taking the time.
  
  You are the one conflating all Jews with the settle ethnostate you live in, officer
  
  How dare the Jewish people try to build a safe home for themselves after centuries of persecution and oppression.
  Slaughtering civilians around you doesn't build a safe home. It in fact makes your home more dangerous, because now people are motivated to attack you in return
  
  This didn't start in 2023.
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes
  This has been going on since 1948.
  
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567
  A war to expand your territory is ok? So Palestinians attacking Israel to expand theirs should be ok to you too then.
  
  Which is why israeli ministers attended a "settle in Gaza" conference 7 months ago
  
  Mate, are you for real?
  
  What an amazing story full of facts and evidence. Maybe you could send an email to the International Court of Justice explaining them they made a small mistake two months ago:
  Jul 19, 2024: Top UN court says Israel’s presence in occupied Palestinian territories is ‘illegal’ and should end as ‘rapidly as possible’
  
  Why does the State encourage people to settle on Palestinian territory then?
  
  https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-settlements-expansion.html
  Edit: Funny how they never replied to that
  
  Oh, so the Nakba was all fine? Idk, I'm seeing here a second Nakba, but it might be my antisemitic brain... And with illegal occupation I mean all the occupation Israel has been doing for decades. We all have seen the maps of what was Palestine pre-nakba and what it is today. The only reasons why we are ok with what Israel is doing are:
  United States support
  Palestine being an Arab country (and we all know how the west hates Arabs in general)
  Fear of being called antisemitic after what Nazis did.
  And tbf, right now I'm pretty sure the main reason is the first one. If that drops, I'm almost sure Israel is going to have a veeeeeeery tough time trying to find support in the international community to fend themselves against every enemy they have made.
  
  See? This is the "with me or against me" rhetoric I was talking about in another post. I never said I want the destruction of Israel. I said that the only reasons why they are still being supported by the international community are those three points, being the most important the fact that the US supports them.
  If that drops, they will have a hard time looking for allies because right now, nobody can in good faith say that they agree with what Israel is doing in Gaza, and if someone was to attack them and the US doesn't step in, I'm not sure anyone else will.
  That is not saying that I want the violent destruction of Israel, that is stating facts. You might not like them, but that's how things are right now. Israel has no friends and that is entirely because of how they are behaving.
  
  Simple: We just stop sending them weapons. They are digging their own grave by doubling down in this war and in poking other nations. And they do it because they know that "Daddy US" will cover their asses in case things turn ugly.
  
  why do you want a theocracy or ethnostate? Also what one is it you are advocating for, or is it both, because Isreal is both of them under the status quo. and I find both of these types of nations moraly reprehensable
  
  If it isn't an ethnostate, then why did you call it the only Jewish nation of the world?
  
  Zionism is a settler colonialism project was able to start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a 'modern' way to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' of Europe.
  Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized by Zionism during its history.
  Since at least the 1860's, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it's backing of the movement in order to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
  That's when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
  Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be 'Transferred' to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
  
  Page 8, The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
  10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
  Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
  
  Ok, it sounds like you don't have an understanding of Settler Colonialism or the reality of Settler Violence and Ethnic Cleansing in the West Bank.
  
  The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
  Avi Shlaim
  How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
  ‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
  
  Would be cool to have one state with an actual democracy
  
  Israel is not a democracy, except as a propaganda implement lol
  You are either the most gullible rube on the planet or pushing an agenda
  
  "my arbitrary numbers pulled from my ass say that my ethnostate is slightly more democratic than the people we're actively exterminating with bombs and starvation, and have prevented from having a functioning society. You should support us as a result"
  Do you honestly think that's remotely convincing lmao
  
  Sounds like your ass is in lockstep with the US state department
  Actual source: The Economist, a journal that speaks for British millionaires.
  The Economist also at one point argued that Confederate victory would result in abolition faster than a Union victory. But don't worry they totally supported abolition they were just really worried that it wouldn't get done fast enough.
  
  "The people we're bombing and starving aren't governing themselves properly"
  I love how I made fun of you for saying something worthy of ridicule and you just do it again without blinking.
  
  I mean... The USA is far from democratic so it's not as if it was a great example to follow?
  
  You know that's not true. Zionism wants all the territory for the "correct" Jews.
- I read all the definitions of antisemitism on your link and am not seeing the issue?
  
  Usual propaganda from pro-genocide people: considering that Israel is the whole Jewish world so any kind of critics towards them can be tagged as antisemitism.
  
  If you don't like being compared to Nazis, maybe stop doing things that Nazis would do? Such as an ethnic cleansing?
  Idk, just an idea...
  
  You're right, it's more like a genocide. After all, they're just bombing everything indiscriminately, starving people to death, blocking humanitarian aid and occupying illegally territories that don't belong to them.
  Not to mention that they basically shot to kill everyone they find, be it an UN worker, a child or an US citizen protesting.
  But hey, god forbid we criticise what those bastards do, we wouldn't like to be called antisemitic...
  Fuck Netanyahu, fuck his government and fuck everyone supporting what they are doing in Gaza.
  
  I'm pretty sure that if we're not seeing more deaths it is because the international community would have trouble trying to justify it. But not because Netanyahu doesn't want it.
  They abuse Palestinians in their jails, they kill children, they attack refugee camps... All because "Hamas was hiding there". I'm sorry but no. There's a limit to what you can do. And Israel is surpassing it by far. They are not only killing, they are razing cities, they are basically making Gaza uninhabitable and they are blocking humanitarian aid (when they're not directly destroying it), so yeah, they are trying to starve people.
  
  Eh... Yes?
  
  If you raze their towns making them effectively uninhabitable and then declare those zones "a war zone" while you also block any effort to reconstruct and allow people to occupy those territories, you're expelling them from their land.
  
  Then you shouldn't mind of Israelites were forced to uproot and move to another part of Israel in order to respect the border as it was agreed back when the State was created, right? I mean, Israelites being forcibly moved inside Israel shouldn't be a problem if it's not a problem to do the same thing to Gazans...
  
  So what you're saying is that people can freely return to their homes in Gaza city?
  
  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2024/4/18/satellite-images-reveal-israeli-destruction-of-hospitals-in-gaza
  Where and what do they return to after those temporary evacuations?
  
  Right, and obviously you think there's no cost or trauma associated with it, so when Hamas does the same thing in Israel your reaction is "Houses can be rebuilt", right?
  
  Right, and nobody else will be motivated to attack Israelis after coming home to an obliterated home with their dead family inside.
  
  In Gaza there is ~~only temporary evacuations~~ forced displacement of civilians from ~~dangerous areas~~ their homes. This is ~~not only~~ illegal ~~but required~~ under international humanitarian law as a war crime
  There, fixed it for you.
  Gazans are ~~not~~ constantly expelled from their land
  In fact, almost all Palestinians in Gaza have been forcibly displaced
  they aren’t allowed to leave the Gaza strip
  True, but not a good thing. The Israeli apartheid regime is basically moving Gazans around inside an open air prison in between the murder and the theft and destruction of those things necessary for people to live.
  
  Rule 24. Each party to the conflict must, to the extent feasible, remove civilian persons and objects under its control from the vicinity of military objectives.
  That's NOT what Israel is doing. They're constantly DIRECTING military force at civilians
  B. Parties to a non-international armed conflict may not order the displacement of the civilian population, in whole or in part, for reasons related to the conflict, unless the security of the civilians involved or imperative military reasons so demand
  Weird that you'd include this in DEFENSE of Israel since that's what they're constantly doing. Hell, sometimes they'll even force civilians into a so-called "safe zone" and then bomb that area!
  
  Israel is a State, not people, you can hate it all you want, it doesn't make you racist.
  
  Israel is a sham democracy floated by endless US weapons, don't worry I hate the US too, and pretty much every other state is slightly lower in my shit list because they're not actively exterminating people for their settlers right now
  
  Israel is a State, racism is towards people. The State of Israel doesn't represent the opinion of all Jews, I've got no problem with Jews who don't support the State of Israel, I've got a problem with Jews and anyone else who does.
  By your logic most of the world was racist towards Americans from 2016 to 2020.
  
  It's the rhetoric used by those who want to be seen as victims. They pretend that you associate the state with the totality of the people forming it. That way it's easier to control the narrative. And if you look closely, it's the same they are trying to do with the "Palestine=Hamas" bullshit.
  If you hate Israel, according to them, you hate the whole Jewish world. It's easier that way to create the "with me or against me" rhetoric.
  
  Yeah and clearly you assume that people do the former when they're doing the latter, like in the OP
  
  No, it's an illustration of the fact that Israel gets away with war crimes and a comparison to something that is of historical significance to Israelites to show the hypocrisy.
  They (and you) don't get to use the racism card to get out of being criticized or compared.
  
  That's like saying, "It's fine to say that you just hate the government of Nazi Germany, but if that's the only nation state you hate, it means you're racist against Germans." What?
  I hate every apartheid state with equal intensity, however, since South Africa ended their system of apartheid, that just leaves Israel. I suppose if Israel's system of apartheid was ended first and South Africa's remained, it would mean I was racist against white people or something. Funny how who I'm "racist" towards is entirely dependant on who's doing apartheid.
  
  Du scheinst ein sehr schwarz/weißes Weltbild zu haben
- This is russian state terrorist levels of stupid.
- Hating a State doesn't mean hating the people living under its rule or the people associated with its culture. Would you call me racist if I told you I hate the State of China for the genocides it's committing?
  
  Who called for Israelites to be displaced? It's nowhere in the OP.
  Who called for the destruction of Israel? It's nowhere in the OP.
  The OP is stating a fact, Israel is doing things in Gaza that other States wouldn't be allowed to do to their neighbor without repercussions from first world countries. Stating that and saying that Israel needs to stop isn't racism.
  
  It's actually not
  
  Do you realise that such a broad definition only is saying that Israel can't be considered Nazi no matter what they do?
  
  If you're committing a genocide it's only fair that people compare you with other people who commited genocide. Like the nazis.
  And of course it hurts. Because Israel hates to be reminded that they are becoming the kind of people that 80 years ago tried to exterminate them.
  Stop doing nazi things if you don't want to be called a nazi. It's as simple as that.
  
  OP had to pull their definition from a page that didn't exist until after the October 7th attack in order to find a source that calls comparing State policies to another State's policies racism.
  
  It's not, if the state of Israel starts to displace people of a specific ethnic group to isolate them in order to more easily kill them isn't it fair to make a comparison with any other group that did the same thing in the past?
  Stop conflating the State and the people, that's actually much more racist than criticizing the State because you're basically saying that all Jews support what the State of Israel is doing.
  
  A genocide is a genocide is a genocide.
  
  ...
  Ok, clearly you're just a troll, goodbye
  
  The word you're looking for is 'apropos'.
  
  antisemitic
  You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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