Stance on conflict

To hear the tankies on Lemmy:

OnLy DEmoCraTs aRe ZiOnisT GeNOCiderS! VotE fOr RepUBLicaNs!

The amount of intellectual dishonesty I hear out of tankies is insane. The second you call them out, they ban you and delete your comments.
- "I haven't seen a single screenshot to back up their accusations of us!" yeah no shit
What leftist has suggested voting for Trump? Ever?
- Literally anyone holding Harris's feet to the fire right now of all moments, when the outcome of the election depends on it. You win the election first, you moderate your demands until then, and then you raise the volume on your calls for change.
  Because only one of those two candidates has quite literally suggested arresting and deporting ALL protesters. Undermining the only person who can prevent him from getting to the office that would enable that shit is just as bad if not worse than actually just quietly voting for him.
  
  So the answer is nobody, nobody has suggested voting for Trump, and you want people to hold their tongues about ongoing genocide.
Can you give me an example of this? It’s so ubiquitous it can be generalized, so surely it will be easy!
- It's in nearly every single thread they are present in. They constantly attack Harris, and never mention Trump's stance.
  
  And yet you don't show any examples for your bizarre claim. I swear y'all have more issues with the left than with fascists.
  The reason many leftists don't mention Trump is because there's already consensus that he's an awful person and a wannabe fascist dictator.
"if you don't vote for the good genocider, the bad genocider will get into office. And he is RUDE!"

Jesus, I've had this argument recently. Pointless, they are just on some crusade.

says who?
Is the only "non zionist genocide supporter" position that israel needs to cease existence tomorrow?
- According to tankies, the only "non-zionist genocide supporter" position is actually the ethnic cleansing of Israeli Jews.
  
  they engage in binary extremism, anything short of THIS particular outcome is unacceptable by any amount, and anything that isn't this is quite literally fascist nazi genocide of an entire group of people (who arguably might not even exist in significant capacity) granted i don't know much about the middle east, but i'd have to guess Palestinians are pretty similar to the average arab. But i could be completely wrong lol.
Even if that were true, there's a value proposition to work through here. Like most sane people, I typically prioritize my own children and the children of people I know over people in a country on the other side of the planet I will never interact with and whose fate will never affect in the slightest. That's just basic triage.
This is not to say I don't care about them, but looking at it from a purely pragmatic stance, it's not an issue that's going to change my position am inch on who to vote for in this election.

All these people are convinced that Trump would be worse for Palestinians.

And maybe they're right, maybe Trump will send in straight up death squads. Maybe he'll build vans that pipe the exhaust into the cargo area and ship them to tel Aviv. Maybe he'll start sending the Israelis Zyclon b.

But the fact remains. The last year has been the most deadly for Palestinians. Ever. More Palestinians have been killed in the last year than died during the formation of the state of Israel. More Palestinians have had their homes destroyed in the last year, then ever before in modern history.

At this point, saying Trump would be worse for Palestine is like saying that Himmler would have been worse for the Jews. Possibly technically correct, but also a poor attempted genocide denial.

Trump feels the only thing Israel is doing wrong is not killing Palestinians fast enough.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-pr-hugh-hewitt-21faee332d95fec99652c112fbdcd35d
Worse, if Trump wins, he will bring the worst Israeli policies to the United States.
He will take Israel's policy of illegally invading Lebanon as a "security zone" and apply it to Mexico:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_Southern_Lebanon
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/donald-trump-mexico-military-cartels-war-on-drugs-1234705804/
He will set up internment camps in the United States for immigrants and others classed as "undesirable":
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-does-not-rule-out-building-detention-camps-mass-deportations-2024-04-30/
He will purge the government of any and all opposition:
https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2022/07/trump-endorsed-plan-purge-civil-service-rogue-bureaucrats/375028/
He wants to arrest journalists:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/politics/kash-patel-trump-administration/index.html
To be clear here, if Harris does not win, Trump will. Those are your two choices. You can choose to vote for Harris or you court disaster. There is no viable 3rd choice.
- Ok.
  More Palestinians killed than in 1948. But, we can't criticize the administration committing a holocaust, we can't say anything negative about Hitler because "Himmler would be even worse"
  I still remember when you shitlibs said "WHATABOUTISM" was bad, now you use it unironically to defend ethnic cleansing.
  
  We absolutely can criticize the administration committing a holocaust... The ISRAELI administration.
you realize trump genuinely considered using a nuclear bomb during his office term right?
What do you mean "he might be worse"
But the fact remains. The last year has been the most deadly for Palestinians. Ever.
also i feel like there was probably at least one famine that killed significantly more people at one point in history.
- Not only considered using a nuke, but wanted to use a nuke to put out a hurricane...
  https://www.axios.com/2019/08/25/trump-nuclear-bombs-hurricanes
  
  this ones a classic, i always forget about it lmao
If Donald Trump had the faintest fucking clue what any of that was he would be getting very excited...
- Thank goodness it looks like he will lose.
  Now, can we talk about the current administration enabling, supporting, and funding the worst ethnic cleansing the middle east has seen in centuries?
  
  Tbh the Syrian civil war saw 6 hundred thousand people killed and 14 million more people displaced
  I guess you might have forgotten because that's already 0,1 centuries ago
  
  So, assuming Kamala wins and that Israel continues escalating in the West Bank, in a year or two when the death count finally hits 600,001, you will finally allow criticism of your golden girl?
  
  Your golden girl can go drink lukewarm shit from a baby bottle
  I'm just saying you're flaunting hyperlatives without the faintest clue because you've been Kony'd to your keyboard
Hey, I wonder despite all that if Hamas regrets Oct. 7th?. [checks news] Nope.
- Gaza was am open air prison before the October 7th attacks. Prisoners might have a bad time after a prison riot, but such actions dont happen without context.
  
  Clearly violence on innocents is justified then /s
- Innocent civilians are not an occupying force.
  
  And anyone that thinks that is a terrorist. See how easy it is to spout BS to avoid taking responsibility for evil actions?
  
  Citation needed
- man the internet fucking sucks now
  
  No, just ML fascists and their alts.
  
  yeah, and they're the reason why lmao

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-816355

just wait til you see what trump does.
- At this point, saying Trump would be worse for Palestine is like saying that Himmler would have been worse for the Jews. Possibly technically correct, but also a poor attempted genocide denial.
  More have died and more have been made refugees, in the last year; than during the Nakba. This has been the deadliest year for Palestinians, by an order of magnatude, in modern history.
  So take your "Trump would be worse" bullshit. Wrap it in sandpaper. And shove it up your ass.
- So we agree: both sides of this election support the ongoing genocide being committed by Israel.
  
  do you want more genocide or less genocide?
  
  Inb4 "I wAnT nO gEnOcIdE" like it's some kind of clever gotcha response that shows anything but their whole white bougie kid politics having ass.
  
  I want you to stop pretending that she'll do anything to even slow it down. I encourage you to vote for her and Walz because it serves our country better than Trump and the couch fucker, but admit that the two parties' positions on Palestine are materially the same. We can't change anything until we acknowledge the problem.
  
  Because not stopping a roll towards a wall is exactly the same as hitting the fucking accelerator.
  Your politics would see us Palestinians all massacred on the altar of "well the dems would have been the same anyways!"
  
  They are being exterminated now by a Democrat.
  More dead since before the Nakba. More homes destroyed and more refugees than 1948. And you want me to clap and cheer for the party responsible for 200k dead innocent people.
  This is a second Nakba, somehow even worse, and you want me to vote for the party enabling it.
  
  Yes, because I'm not a moron and know that if the alternative were to come to pass, we'd see the Israelis progress to building gas chambers.
  Take your fake outrage and shut the fuck up. The only kind of person who fights this hard to insist there's no difference is someone who has never lived the difference and who doesn't want to listen to anyone who has.
  If you think the solution to democratic enablement of Israel is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, West Bank, and Golan Heights on a silver platter have policy control over the situation instead, you are either a willing or unwitting zionist agent, and in both cases you need to do a lot less acting like you get to carry any torches about it and do a lot more listening to people who's politics aren't entirely informed by how they're only in danger if the fascists run out of ethnics, queer folks, and "unruly women" to execute first.
  My grandfather didn't flee the first one for me to watch moghafleen like you throw the rest of us into the fires because doing literally the bare minimum to keep it from getting worse doesn't make you feel high and mighty enough.
  
  Lancet reports that, conservatively, we are looking at 200k dead Palestinians.
  Displaced, killed, imprisoned Kurds, at the hands of Saddam, only hit 180k.
  Why should I vote for someone who is responsible for more innocent deaths than Saddam Fucking Hussein?
  Kamala only has to follow US law to earn my vote. I am not asking a lot, be better than Saddam Hussein and follow the law.
  
  Read my second sentence again. Particularly the part where I say "I encourage you to vote for Harris and Walz".
  
  While removed and moaning about "bUt DeMs SaMe!" to justify continuing to be of less than no help to harm reduction.
  Palestine has become just the latest front in white bougie kids' war against the idea that the democrats are in fact not the fucking same as the republicans and that being a whiney cynical cunt insisting otherwise doesn't make you smarter than everyone who actually has to live the damned difference and fucking knows better.
  
  You believe Harris is harm reduction.
  I encourage people to vote Harris.
  You believe I am against harm reduction and move on to personal attacks.
  Make it make sense.
  
  Under Kamala I think we have the possibility of seeing a Netanyahu free Israel, with leadership making more sober decisions.
  
  Genuine question: what makes you think that? Is it a vibes thing? I've been listening to her public statements and it seems to me like she won't be changing from Biden's policy. I want to think she'll be better than Biden was on this issue (like she is on a number of issues), but so far I see no evidence of that.
  
  You are huffing paint if you think a change of leadership will fix a genocidal ethnostate currently engaged in the most violent ethnic cleansing the region has seen in centuries.
  
  Why would you think a regime change won't solve the issue when you acknowledge the situation under the regime is unique over a span of centuries?
  
  Because I have seen the polling regarding Israeli support of the current operations.
  Because I have seen Israeli TV.
  Because I have read Israeli news.
  This is not a "Bibi bad, he goes away and peace will reign" situation. Anymore than impeaching Andrew Jackson would have stopped the American genocide of it's indigenous people.
  
  Seems like the genocide is already accelerating, so this is also a false choice. Either way it will be more.
  I'm not saying "don't vote for Harris" nor am I saying "don't vote at all". I support Harris, but pretending she doesn't support Israel's genocide or she'll somehow slow it down is just ignorant of reality.
  We are watching the destruction of the Palestinian people in real time and the people able to stop it are entirely unwilling to care.
  
  you are completely ignoring Trump's track record vis a vis Israel and Palestine. He has been much more fanatical in his support of Israel than any other president, even other republican presidents. For example:
  moved the American embassy to Jerusalem
  has never once uttered the words "cease fire", only called for Israel's "victory"
  has never lamented any Palestinian deaths at all
  reversed US's position on Israeli settlements in Palestine (which Biden has again reversed to the original position in accordance with international law)
  
  Give me an answer other than "Trump is worse". Of course he is.
  This is about how Harris could be better. She could be pushing for sanctions on Israel. She could be saying she'll stop supplying the genocide. She could acknowledge that the genocide is a genocide.
  She does none of these things because she doesn't care.
  Yes, vote for her (I will be), but acknowledge that the lesser of two evils is still evil.
  
  Give me an answer other than “Trump is worse”. Of course he is.
  firstly, your comment above literally started with "Seems like the genocide is already accelerating, so this is also a false choice. Either way it will be more." Now you say "of course he is worse" as if we're all supposed to know you believe that. plenty of people on Lemmy don't.
  Secondly, when you only criticize one side just because you think the other side is too far gone, you are making the discussion biased against Harris.
  
  which side is against it?
  
  I want zero genocide
  The Democrats want genocide
  The Republicans want genocide
  I want zero genocide
  
  me too, but that's not an option.
  so, are you going to vote for more genocide, or less genocide?
  
  Let's put this in perspective. bibi and Isreal is committing Genocide. Genocide has happened and is still happening. Americans have provided weapons of war and continue to provide weapons of war to Isreal as they have all their allies. The only thing America has failed to do is pressure bibi to stop. Do they have that power? I wouldn't know. Some people claim to know.
  In 2024 we aren't voting for genocide. We are voting for candidates all claiming to know the exact right thing to do on this particular issue. Will any of this result in turning back the clock on what's been done? No. Should the united states president be able to midgate the continued conflict? Possibly.
  I'm going to remind everyone again. America is not the world police. You don't want them as the world police. You can continue your campaign against the democrats all you want but please. I beg you. Look at who your allies are in that fight. bibi himself would cum his pants to see the orange dictator take office.
  
  Which side is less genocide?
  Remember, The number of dead, The number of refugees, And the number of destroyed buildings, all outnumber what occured in 1948. By several times.
  This is the worst ethnic cleansing the region has seen in centuries. Even Saddam racked up less kills when he was gassing Kurds.
  
  There were more than 5 hundred thousand people killed in the Iran-Iraq war
  You might have forgotten because that's already 0,4 centuries ago
  
  War is not the extermination of an ethnic group. Deaths on a battlefield are not dead children buried under rubble.
  You are comparing the battle of the bulge with a death camp.
  
  Do you think there were no children killed in the Iran-Iraq war?
  
  This is the worst ethnic cleansing the region has seen in centuries. Even Saddam racked up less kills when he was gassing Kurds.
  The Anfal Campaign was what, 200,000 killed?
  Unless the Palestinian death toll, already horrific, has quintupled, I don't think your math checks out.
  
  Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death9 to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza. Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 375 259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip. A report from Feb 7, 2024, at the time when the direct death toll was 28 000, estimated that without a ceasefire there would be between 58 260 deaths (without an epidemic or escalation) and 85 750 deaths (if both occurred) by Aug 6, 2024.
  https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
  This was before Israel began cutting off water, fuel, and medicine to Jenin, as part of their effort to expand the conflict. It ignores the thousands of casualties in the West Bank as well, which will continue to increase as Israel escalates.
  
  that's not an option
  Why?
  
  because our two party and single choice voting systems suck. But it's the world we live in and we have to do the best we can with it.
  so if your only two options are more genocide or less genocide, which are you going to choose? And if your answer is "none of the above" remember that effectively counts as a half vote for more genocide.
  
  Okay but it doesn't seem like that's a viable option right now
  
  It is a viable option. There is nothing preventing the Democrats from opposing genocide
  Biden could do so tomorrow. Harris could then continue that policy
  
  yes and we should keep pressuring them to do so. But this post is about comparing Harris to Trump, and how they do not have the same policy. I'd much rather try to convince Harris to adjust her position than Trump
  
  Within the confines of the law, your best chance at pressuring Harris to change her position is to very vocally demand the Democrats cease support of Israel immediately, and that if they don't then you will not support or vote for them. What other leverage do you have over them?
  
  That's not what I meant and you know that.
- What send more?
  
  the guy who:
  moved the American embassy to Jerusalem
  has never once uttered the words "cease fire"
  has never lamented any Palestinian deaths at all
  reversed US's position on Israeli settlements in Palestine
  yeah, more.
  
  So just like what is happening now.
  won't hold israel accountable for war crimes
  won't allow UN to step in
  continue to keep aid from going in
  Again how can it get worse for those in Gaza?
  
  If you genuinely don't think a Trump Presidency could make the situation any worse, you have no right to talk over anyone who's actually been paying the miniscule-est amount of attention it would take to know better.
  Signed, a Palestinian American.
  Fuck your privileged ass trying to justify letting us burn.
  
  Try me. How does it get worse than famine, constant bombings, plague, and now polio.
  Ignoring what's happening now doesn't help anything.
  
  America joining in because Trump doesn't think the jews are finishing the job fast enough?
  West Bank being fully annexed and the 200,000 Palestinians who've been able to hold on thus far being deported to Gaza for more bombings or to Jordan where the royal family was already selling them out even before a civil war broke out over it leading to the king's assassination?
  Trump intentionally provoking war in the entire region because his followers are part of a fucking death cult and think it'll cause the biblical battle of Armageddon and make their sky daddy come home?
  Evangelicals convincing Trump to begin a program to settle christians in the region to refound the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem?
  Have you fucking read any of Project 2025, use your damn imagination and odds are they've already come up with even worse and adopted it as official platform policy.
  Get off your soapbox and prevent the greater harm, or quit pretending you have any business calling yourself an ally while being a whiny wilted little cunt ass about how it's everyone else's job to make you want to for your own feel goods.
  
  This guy's read project 2025
  
  Get off your soapbox and prevent the greater harm, or quit pretending you have any business calling yourself an ally while being a whiny wilted little cunt ass about how it’s everyone else’s job to make you want to for your own feel goods.
  Great rebuttal there
  
  Try me. How does it get worse than famine, constant bombings, plague, and now polio.
  [describes in detail how it could get worse]
  YOU SAID A BAD WORD, GREAT REBUTTAL
  Average tankie embracing civility politics the moment someone doesn't give them asspats for being pro-genocide.
  
  you don't have to ignore what's happening now to imagine many ways it could get worse.
  ever heard of things like concentration camps and mass executions?
  
  That is what's happening there...
  
  *citation needed
  
  Simple. It's as bad as it is now despite Biden's administration delaying arms, prohibiting aid being sent to illegal settlers, and constantly pushing for a peace deal. A Trump administration wouldn't bother with any of that.
  Imagine how bad it would be with Trump patting Netanyahu on the back the whole time, shovelling arms over there as fast as the grift would allow, and subsidizing the settlements (now not illegal if the UN knows what is good for it). Precision munitions? Why bother when you could just carpet MOABs the whole district?
  See now how it will be worse?
  
  Do you think it’ll get better for those in Ukraine if Trump became king?
  
  famously part of Gaza?
  
  Yeah those people aren't dying in the right region of the world for you to care about I guess
  
  but what about this other thing
  So no actual argument against Gaza genocide?
  
  Weren’t you saying the two parties are the same?
  
  Again how can it get worse for those in Gaza?
  this isn't complicated. more of literally everything.
  
  What's worse than a genocide we're allowing to happen...
  
  you are either supremely naive or a blatant trump shill. Israel still has many cards left to play in the genocide deck like cultural reprogramming, concentration camps, and mass executions.
  
  everyone I don't like is a trump supporter
  get a new line.
  So it gets worse by what's already happening?
  
  no, I said you are either naive OR a trump shill. if you say you are honestly not a trump shill I will take your word, and stand by the statement that you're supremely naive.
  So it gets worse by what’s already happening?
  get a new line.
  
  This genocide has been going on for decades, genius. Do you think the past year of genocide is 'just as bad' as the past two decades of genocide? Yes or no?
  
  I'm sure you can use your imagination.
  
  amazing rebuttal
  
  You have the right to ask how things get better for Palestinians if Harris takes office. While you're at it please take time to ask how do things get better for Americans if trump takes office. The US president doesn't just set the tone for Palestine. They have influence all over the world.
  If Harris wins and the day after the election Isreal signs a treaty won't you just think for a second what that means
  Edit: at the very least acknowledge bibi would like nothing more then to see donald trump in the white house, coward.
  
  BUT WHAT ABOUT
  The top level comment this is all from is
  Lemmy: bOth PArTiES ARE zIoniSt gEnociDERS!
  None of your argument is refuting that.
  Then again not expecting much in a meme community*___**___**___*
  
  How dare I ask what Americans will do as the result of an American election.
  Edit: why are Palistian lives in the hands of a foreign nation to begin with?
  Edit2: American hands. Sorry if you haven't brushed up on your history but our track record is not great friend. You want to see America do better? It's starts by not being ambivalent about every other political issue going on in this nation.
  Also it's fine if you hate America, if you hate everything we stand for; you hate Kamala and you would like to see me piked personally but have the decency to look me in the eyes when you impale me. I'll see right past you.
  
  Also it’s fine if you hate America, if you hate everything we stand for. You hate Kamala and you would like to see me piked personally but have the decency to look me in the eyes when you impale me. I’ll see right past you.
  way to do unfounded personal attacks.
  
  Was that personal? I was just asking the question.
  
  send more AND put you in jail for protesting that he's sending more
  
  Did you not watch this administration support and give more funding to the cops who beat up campus protesters?
  
  Is that supposed to be a whataboutism? You mean the same administration that launched a national database for police misconduct? That one? They're funding STATE cops? how? Or do you mean the feds beating up protesters like that time trump sent Homeland Security to abduct protesters off the street and detain them without charges, did The Biden admin do that too at some point because if they did I must have missed it. So what is your point exactly, that we should enable fascists because why fight it if bOtH SiDeS ArE thE SaME?
  
  okay cool just checking
  
  Did you not read the articles or watch clips of Trump threatening to deport college kid protestors? People who are commonly citizens…
  
  Did you not watch police protect neo Nazis while they stormed student encampments, and later beat those same students themselves for daring to oppose genocide?
  Lancet reports, conservatively, 200k Palestinian deaths. That is more dead than 1948. And you want me to vote for the party that supplied every one of those bombs.
  
  I did watch police protect their neo nazi friends and beat protesters, it’s disgusting.
  But you are kidding yourself if not voting isn’t a vote for Trump. And you are kidding yourself if you think a right wing Christian nationalist party would send fewer bombs. They would send more “for Jesus” and I think you know that.
  
  All these people are convinced that Trump would be worse for Palestinians.
  And maybe they're right, maybe Trump will send in straight up death squads. Maybe he'll build vans that pipe the exhaust into the cargo area and ship them to tel Aviv. Maybe he'll start sending the Israelis Zyclon b.
  But the fact remains. The last year has been the most deadly for Palestinians. Ever. More Palestinians have been killed in the last year than died during the formation of the state of Israel. More Palestinians have had their homes destroyed in the last year, then ever before in modern history.
  At this point, saying Trump would be worse for Palestine is like saying that Himmler would have been worse for the Jews. Possibly technically correct, but also a poor attempted genocide denial.
  
  I’ve seen you comment that in a few places, and I don’t really think I disagree with you. It’s truly awful what is happening and has happened to Palestinians. It’s also awful that our government is, on average, indifferent and in bed with AIPAC.
  I wish there were real leaders here with courage to lead and be better. I would much rather vote to support men and women like that than “which of these ~~humans~~ trash bags will do the least damage.”