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  • I didn't mean that it originated with bouncers, I meant I imagined it coming to be associated with race in such a way 😅

    • yeah no i understand, i'm just saying that's a potential point where i could've originated and then morphed over time. Even if it was founded on race originally, it's not super likely it would matter today in any broader contexts.

      • Idk if that's for white folks like me (and you?) to decide, and there is no harm on erring on the side of caution.

        It's like the deal with micro-aggressions. Alone they're not much, but a constant buildup of these little things can leave someone feeling raw and very sensitive to it.

        I don't think the etymology started with race, I think it started with day/night. But I'm not an expert on etymology, and while I'm very curious, it probably doesn't really matter here.

        • Idk if that’s for white folks like me (and you?) to decide, and there is no harm on erring on the side of caution.

          yeah, probably not, and that's why i tend to err on the side of these discussions not being very productive. As for erring on the side of caution, idk. I'm not really sure theres that much caution even present to begin with. It might even be sufficient enough to just not use the terms around specific people per their request, or not at all, who knows.

          It’s like the deal with micro-aggressions. Alone they’re not much, but a constant buildup of these little things can leave someone feeling raw and very sensitive to it.

          i think my problem, is that people have a very analytical and sterile approach to these things. In terms of classifying and denoting things micro aggressions as a term makes sense. But from a broader societal perspective, i think it's useless, if not negatively impactful.

          It's better to identity specific facets of society that are problematic, for example treatment and behavior of certain people differently from others, as opposed to "treating the symptom" so to speak.

          I don’t think the etymology started with race, I think it started with day/night. But I’m not an expert on etymology, and while I’m very curious, it probably doesn’t really matter here.

          it really could've been from anything, but at the end of the day whatever it started from is irrelevant to it's use case today, and anybody using it to be offensive is offensive for other reasons at that point.

          • It's better to identity specific facets of society that are problematic [...] as opposed to "treating the symptom" so to speak.

            I think it's difficult to separate the two, they form a feedback loop. It's like the broken window theory.
            \ People see these little ambiguously exclusionary acts, and if they see enough of them then they get the subconscious message that exclusionary acts are ok, and the (possibly accidental) targets of the acts get the subconscious message that they're not welcome which makes the subject raw and sensitive and primes them to look at acts through that lens.

            In college I took a class on how humans and computers interact, and one of the things my professor was passionate about was how the terminology of programming languages tended to be exclusionary to women. Not explicitly so, but just using violent language that women were raised to find uncomfortable (eg killing a process), and it was pushing women out of computer science.
            \ This was like 15 years ago, and he was already passionate about it at the time, so this isn't really a new thing, its just getting broader attention.

            I don't know if that's happening here, but it costs nothing to change so even a potential minor improvement is worth it.

            • People see these little ambiguously exclusionary acts, and if they see enough of them then they get the subconscious message that exclusionary acts are ok, and the (possibly accidental) targets of the acts get the subconscious message that they’re not welcome which makes the subject raw and sensitive and primes them to look at acts through that lens.

              this is the reason i think we need to treat them more broadly, it's a broad problem, the solution also needs to be broad, unless we want to ignore an entire segment of the problem entirely.

              In college I took a class on how humans and computers interact, and one of the things my professor was passionate about was how the terminology of programming languages tended to be exclusionary to women. Not explicitly so, but just using violent language that women were raised to find uncomfortable (eg killing a process), and it was pushing women out of computer science.

              Did they ever mention the history of the CS field generally being sexist towards women? I would also argue that women being "averse" to terms like killing is equally presumptive, women cooked in the kitchen throughout the 1950's, you think they got acquainted with the concept and idea of killing things? Like turkeys, chicken, cows, etc. They almost certainly understand the concept of death. They've seen it first hand, arguably more so than men throughout history ignoring things like war. If we include child birth it's even MORE aggressively supporting of this point. It wasn't that long ago that you would have children, and they would just, die sometimes. These days thankfully, miscarriages are the most significant threat to giving birth to a living child. Those didn't stop, i'm not sure if they lowered? I think that's why they're so statistically prevalent compared to everything else, but idk shit about miscarriages so don't ask me lol.

              Thankfully the sexism in the field has improved, the problem stems more from the CS field being predominately men though. Girls were never really being pushed into the field, there are more being pushed into it now, but it's still not super significant, even through anecdotal experience, we just need to be engaging girls in the cs field from an earlier stage. People are just predisposed to giving and educated boys about computers, rather than girls, for some reason.

              • Did they ever mention the history of the CS field generally being sexist towards women? Yes, of course. WTH? Why would you ever think someone passionate about this would not bring that up?

                I would also argue that women being "averse" to terms like killing is equally presumptive Ok I think you're intentionally misinterpreting my words now. This is not a dichotomy.

                • Yes, of course. WTH? Why would you ever think someone passionate about this would not bring that up?

                  well that's good to know, i figured they would, but that seems like a more historically relevant point to me.

                  Ok I think you’re intentionally misinterpreting my words now. This is not a dichotomy.

                  i mean maybe, but it just seems weird to me that we would establish that women comprehend words like "kill" differently, and that we should cater towards that, while we've spent the last like, thirty years if not more trying to move away from these things.

                  I mean we literally have deer hunting seasons to cull the population of deer as they no longer have natural predators, what's the harm in using the term "killing" for referring to ending a process. It makes sense when you think about it. A process is born or created, and then it may fork, or it may not, and those forks may be killed, they may not be, the mainline process will inevitably be killed, either at its own discretion, or forcibly. through a termination.

                  It might be violent, but it's a process, it's literally just lines of code that are being run. There's nothing special or fancy behind them, it makes perfect sense to use terms like "killing a process" and "stop" and "terminate" for shutting them down, it's immediately interpreted.

                  we know from raising children that it's not good to shield them from potential allergens (the get allergies if you do that) and that it's also good to expose them to generally more unsanitary environments (they build up a better immune system response ability) as well as encouraging them to do things they may or may not be capable of, teaching them how to deal with failure, and teaching them how to deal with the general pain and suffering of life. Why have we suddenly decided that "maybe we shouldnt use kill as a terminology to describe the act of ending a processes lifetime" that seems inconsequential to me in the grand scheme of things.

                  There might be data to support it, but i think the data to support that we simply don't push younger girls towards the field of CS is significantly more evident. It has a historical basis, and it tracks with what we're doing today, and the majors and degrees that they're focusing on as well. While we're here, we should probably also do something about younger men in the education space, and the world at large, as they don't exactly have anything to aspire to or focus on.

                  just another moderately relevant example here to extend upon my point.

                  The one thing men had was control and responsibility over women when they didn't have rights. Now that they have rights, we haven't exactly changed anything in regards to how we raise boys, and we're surprised when they start following the likes of tate and the manosphere crowd. Women haven't previously had this opportunity to the same level they do now, so they're still taking advantage of it because they can. But we've basically forgotten about an entire sect of society accidentally at this point.

                  I don't think it's intentional, i just think it's a consequence similar to the decline of the tradesman over the years. Now those jobs have generally better prospects than getting into college, and they've become a very tempting opportunity.

                  • There are many problems and many solutions. We don't need to focus on one problem and pick only one solution.

                    My entire point here was that there is concern that industry jargon can be accidentally exclusionary to some demographics, interest and research on it isn't new, and the effect is usually a "death by a thousand cuts" type thing, like migroaggressions are.

                    I didn't specialize in this, so my knowledge on it is from one part of one class I took like 15 years ago, but I can absolutely see how it could matter.

                    People aren't rational and society doesn't raise us rationally. We can be perfectly ok with something in one context but not ok with it in another context. We can be ok with one thing, but not ok with another similar thing.

                    I agree there are deeper societal issues about how we raise boys and the incentives/traumas we put on kids. That doesn't mean we cant pick off this low hanging fruit at no cost.
                    \ It's important to meet people where they are, not where we think they should be.

                    • it's certainly possible it matters, but ultimately in the field of engineering, if you're designing a bike, it's probably more important to fix that problem where the bike crumples in half impaling the rider on the way down rather than the fact that the water bottle mounting holes need de-burring off the factory line to help prevent them from cutting people slightly.

                      Dealing with microaggressions is definitely one of the problems at all times, there is a question of whether it even exists to any significant degree, considering a lot of people make jokes about other things at the sarcastic expense of something. Is self deprecating humor a self microaggression that we should stamp out because it subconsciously influences people to be a worse person?

                      You see what i'm getting at here? I feel like it's just a really hard problem, with a really hard solution, and i feel like the best solution is to treat it like a moderately insignificant problem, while being consciously aware of it. In fact one could probably argue being consciously aware of microaggressions is going to make you immune to them from the get go.

                      I also feel like it's probably effort needlessly spent relative to other issues as well, like for example we could move to stop microaggressions, or we could like, move to stop racial bias hiring practices, which are probably going to be more beneficial. Or like, make an AI less racist, or like, don't use AI for crime detection and stopping at all probably.

                      like it's a death by thousand cuts sure, but i feel like we're ignoring the missing leg and the dislocated and fractured jaw here as well.

                      It’s important to meet people where they are, not where we think they should be.

                      yeah, absolutely a great stop gap measure here would be doing this on a person by person basis, if X doesn't like Y using Z term, they can mutually come to the agreement to not do that.

                      Another thing we need to consider, is that we can't expect everyone to meet us where we are, because a lot of people (me included as a neurodivergent individual) i do not have normal behaviors, i just ghost friends for long periods of time, i don't hold that against them if they don't like that. That's just a thing i do, and if they don't like it, it's fine, i won't talk to them, and they don't have to talk to me. Anything other than that would be an aggressive overstepping of my personal boundary lines. As well as theirs.

                      I think this is ironically, a shooting yourself in the foot problem, from the broader context, because we're doing this "insignificant" thing to "marginally improve things for others" when in reality, we may actually just be making things more complicated for people who do not function inside of the bubble of normality.

                      I think ultimately, the best thing we can do is to simply prime people to not care. Things are shitty, shitty people say shitty things, just don't worry about it and you don't have a problem, at the end of the day, 90% of this shit is relatively minor, and thinking about it is only going to cause unnecessary anguish.

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