9mo ago

Israel’s Brutality Is Increasing—and So Is Its Denialism

www.thenation.com Israel’s Brutality Is Increasing—and So Is Its Denialism

The atrocities at Al-Shifa Hospital are clear, but Israeli politicians say not a single civilian was killed. It’s just one of several outlandish claims Israel has made recently.

A human rights monitor documented the sniping of at least 13 children in and around Shifa Hospital, all between the ages of 4 and 16.

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177 comments

I can't imagine being a person who sees 4 year old kid in a scope and just shoots them...
Like. .. what goes through their head...do they have their own kids.... what they do in their free time...
I just cant imagine person like that.
- At this point I'm afraid we can look at Nazis (oh the irony...) to understand those Israelis. The similarities of soulless brutality are pretty obvious...
  
  Not ironic. Direct continuity; Israeli precursors helped with the holocaust. More tried, but hitler, for the first and last time in his life, was the least unreasonable dipshit in the room and told them no.
- Listen to how a large portion (obviously not all) Israelis talk about Palestinians. They genuinely do not view them as humans and certainly do not value their lives. They speak of the ongoing genocide with gleeful anticipation. People will literally go to the border to taunt Palestinian parents who've lost their children or the orphans themselves.
  They're not shooting a 4 year old kid, they're simply shooting another "worthless" Palestinian. This way of thinking was and is specifically crafted to enable almost every genocide that has ever happened.
  
  I have a friend who is Jewish and since 10+ years she shares jokes telling Palestinians are bombers and robbers, and thar Jews are inventors, or telling me that Palestinians don't even exist. When I counter argue her she gets pissed and says she accepts no moral lessons from anyone.
  That's sad for me, because I only know 4 Jewish person: 2 were very nice but I lost contact, and the 2 others are so belligerent destroy the good image I have of Jewish people.
  On the other side, I know some 20 Palestinians and much more Arabs, and all of them except one never said anything bad against Jewish (but of course they don't approve when Israel kills people).
  When my Jewish friend tell me that Arabs hate Jews and I provide her this statistics she gets crazy mad again.
  
  Okay if I had a friend like that they definitely wouldn't be my friend for long.
  
  Yes, I deleted her some times, but after some months she apologizes and ask to be friends again and I accept
  
  people will
  Those aren't people. Thinking of them as people is going to make stopping the genocide harder than it has to be, and will cost human lives.
  
  No, they are people. Ignorant, hateful, and actively supporting a genocide, but people nonetheless. My comment was explicitly calling out and criticizing the impulse to dehumanize the "enemy", real or imagined. Thinking of Zionist Israelis or Nazis as less than human not only perpetuates the mindset that allows these groups to carry out genocide, but at the same time denies how easy it is for average people to fall into such traps.
  It leads to thought processes similar to "If you have to be less than human to support a genocide, then obviously what I support can't be genocide because I am definitely a human."
  And I'm definitely not one of those "oh, we just have to talk to these hateful ignorant perpetuators of genocide because they simply don't understand why they're wrong". I'm of the opinion that violence is absolutely necessary to uphold equality if the situation has been left to get as bad as it has. I'm mostly just railing against the idea that people who support genocide are somehow less human because of that hatred.
  
  They will not stop until they're killed, they'll say it themselves if you ask them.
  Theres nothing else to them but the killing, and things that support the killing-I looked in my own conversations with them, and asking some refugees-not palestinian refugees, but queer kids they threw away like trash, because of course they fucking do that, if there was anything worth keeping, anything they missed from 'home', and it was always only the ancient stuff and the Palestinian stuff. Even I miss things about the places I'm from.
  And every fucking one of them knows. They're so obsessively about the genocide. Its like once the topic comes up, there's nothing else to them. Because there's not.
  They leave no other out, and I think all the things that make 'genocide' bad don't apply here. Destroying a culture-either you think they're Jewish, like they claim, and Jewish culture in the entire rest of the world keeps on ticking, or youve talked to one and know they're disgusting goblin monsters who have no culture. Nothing is lost. killing innocents- but there are no innocents. Every one of them over the age of like 14 is guilty, and irredeemable. just killing shit tons of stuff, usually people. Sometimes not-buffalo for example but this is going to happen anyway, and they're not going to stop killing, so youre not choosing that killing happens; youre doing the trolley problem. And I'm of the opinion that oppressor lives are worth less than shit-at least shit makes good fertilizer. there's no point except this time there would be. There are people who need saving. People who have been discarded by the world too many fucking times, and I think letting them keep getting thrown away because we're too precious about their oppressors is fucking monstrous.
  Except it gets worse. Because cultural genocide is, by lemkin's original definition if not the UN convention; still genocide; taking away the things that enable their culture to exist and reproduce itself would be committing a genocide, but genocide is their entire culture (watch what happens when they're finished with Palestine), so even completely peacefully stopping the genocide, lets say proving we're in a simulation, doing a breakout attack, getting root, and disabling PvP flags for the whole middle east, would be a genocide of the kapostanis. I genuinely cannot imagine how they would handle it. Mass suicide? Raiding africa for slaves? It would certainly not be fun to watch.
  Given that I don't know we're in a simulation, I have no idea how to do a breakout attack on the ten year old computer I'm sitting in front if, and that anything you do to stop the genocide of the Palestinians would completely destroy 'Israeli' culture, I'm happy to just see them all dead. They chose to be this. And they're kind of literally Nazis. If grandpa and video ganes taught me one lesson: killing Nazis is always good, and if history has taught me one lesson, its that we always let too many of them live after, and they fuck everything up for decades.
  If any of them don't want to be genocided, they could just leave, or if you think they're still human, stop actively committing genocide at any point. But they don't do that. They get offended if you tell them they could.
  
  Yeah, I agree with everything you just said, but make no mistake, the monsters committing genocide are still human beings. Denying that blurs the line of the purpose of violence done against them and makes it difficult to understand that we must constantly be vigilant against rhetoric and propaganda that advocates for genocide as it is scarily easy for people to fall into patterns of thinking that can justify genocide.
  It is irresponsible to say that, because they are actively committing genocide against a population, they are no longer human beings and that is why they deserve violence. It's an unnecessary extra step that opens the door for the very same genocidal thinking. They are people who have engaged in genocide with no signs of slowing down or stopping, and for that one reason alone, deserve violence until their threat is quashed. That is enough for me; I see no reason or benefit to dehumanize them to justify righteous violence.
  
  I think being biologically human is not morally important to me. You could clone my own muscle tissue(assuming you find any) and I would have no objection to trying it on a bun. Nor to you making a fleshlight and fucking it; you do you.
  These things... There's nothing to them but violence. And that's important to remember; they can't be negotiated with, because there's nothing else they want, nothing else they are. They want to kill rape mutilate and ruin, and they won't stop til they're dead. This isnt me being a bigot; they'll tell you that them fucking selves! They're really fucking consistent about it! There is no diplomatic option, and no surrender they offer could be trusted, if they're even still capable of surrender.
  Even if you could prove we live in a simulation, perform a breakout attack, and disable PvP flags for the middle east, a mavical perfect solution that instantly stops the bloodshed with no threats or coercion; you would still be comitting genocide on the kapostanis, in the same way exterminating the buffalo was a genocide of the plains tribes of north america. More so, maybe. Their entire culture, and its modes of cultural reproduction (killing and raping and generally thinking of new ways to be awful towards Palestinians, importing settlers to stolen land, etc) would be destroyed. A people would he undone. Until they just decided to fucking do slave raids into Africa or whatever shit. And if they're so Fucking vile that they do paradox soft tolerance on stopping a Fucking genocide, I don't think preserving their lives merits much thought.
  I think they need to be killed (are we in a simulation? Can you un-pvp an area?), and if we're going to be doing genocide (by stopping then from doing a genocide), i cabt think of any way to do it but killing them (fwiw, the head of MSF agrees). And I think you're making it harder for the angry 19 year olds who are going to have to pull the triggers. Those kids don't need more PTSD than they're already gonna get from this, y'know?
  Plus by insisting they're human, youre leaving more room for their bad faith bullshit and appropriation of (all) Jewishness, which could get real people killed, and not just by delaying an end to their genocide. People are going to die because of this shit, Human people, all over the world, who are at worst wrong and kind of shitty about this, and at best doing their damdest to stop it, and in every case don't deserve to fucking die. You're increasing the potential for splash damage and innocent lives to be lost by calling kapostani's human.
  I'd love if there were a solution other than violence. Violence fucking sucks. Fuck, aside from the human costb there are no green wars, you know? The climate does not need this shit, I really wish they could and would just Fucking Stop.
  But talk to one. They'll tell you themselves; can't stop won't stop. So its harm reduction time. And I don't cry over spilled Nazi. Neither should you.
  
  This is becoming frustrating. We are on the same page that violence is the only answer; I'm only insisting that we understand that the violence has to be done against our fellow humans. It is a tragedy, but one that must be enacted because, as you say, there is no negotiation to be had here.
  Denying their humanity weakens the claim of righteousness and, moreso than enabling room for their bad faith bullshit, directly feeds into their bad faith claims of antisemitism as dehumanizing them removes genocide from the argument and all your left with is killing animals/barbarians/evil monsters. I don't know about you, but that argument is wholly unconvincing to me. You can certainly claim that because they've engaged in genocide, that's why they've lost their humanity, but again, it's an unnecessary mental step that gains us nothing and weakens the argument for deploying violence against them.
  For the soldier / PTSD argument, I again disagree. Soldiers kill people. There should be no way around that fact. Dehumanization and making it easier for soldiers to mentally compartmentalize the taking of life is not a good thing and can easily be warped to make soldiers follow any order, regardless of the moral imperative. The soldiers can and should be made to understand that they are committing a traumatic amount of violence and death in order to stop an entire genocide. Violence is a tool and it must be wielded responsibly and with full understanding that the violence is both necessary and just.
  Also chill with the faux philosophical ramblings of simulations and video game analogies. I don't care what you believe outside of this context, but this is a serious issue and talking about "disabl[ing] PvP flags for the middle east" belies that this is the real world (simulated or not) with real, serious consequences. It damages your entire argument and makes you come across like you don't see the actual human pain and suffering this massacre has caused.
  
  There are times violence has to be done against fellow humans (right now against the Russian elite, for example; I really don't think fighting a fucking meat grinder war is necessary but States would rather kill millions of civilians and dumb kids than fix the problem directly and make themselves vulnerable).
  I don't particularly care about being 'righteous' or glorious war or any of this crap. I want to stop people dying.
  Ive laid out that I don't particularly care about biological humanity. Just the things you can do with it, and if you wall those off, as happens to basically all of them with fascism, all the reasons I care about people stop being relevant.
  This applies to members of my own family, but none of the ones I could possibly reach are doing genocide, just some awful animal stuffing itself into a bottle and ranting on Facebook somewhere, which required a brief period of mourning and moving the fuck on. Hope they die before drinking their kids' inheritance, but its not worth the social disturbance of killing them.
  But when youre comitting a genocide, youre already doing all the things that would be bad about killing a fascist, but at a much higher volume.
  Theres ending a culture. That's a bad thing about genocide. But either they're Jewish (lol, I know, but for the sake of argument we can pretend) and that culture exists in thousands of cities all over the world, and only individuals (which fascists arent in any of the ways that make that precious) would be lost, OR they're just murder-ghouls whose existence is only atrocities, in which case it extra needs to happen, we are better off without.
  The video game analogy was a thought experiment, the hypothetical "even if you had a magic switch to just make it so nobody could do violence or even so much as fuck woth each other, no matter how badly they wanted to, everyone is completely safe from each other" in shorthand people understand and explaining what that (in a fantasy world where that could happen) might look like, mostly to avoid 'what if's' because I'm rarely sure anyone's arguing in complete good faith, even in more generally sensible places. I know thisisnt a fucking game. If this were a fucking game I'd be good natured about it. Or at least only a little bit of an asshole.
  I'm aware people are dying. I don't think we'd be talking about this if they weren't.
  I think when you become a fascist, most of the death has already happened. Most of the death that matters at least. Again, I have personal experience coping with this. I think most people do by now. Theres a range where you can pull them back, but after a certain point they're just lost, and it only looks like the person you knew/loved.
  Even a chicken has honest feelings, but fascists kind of don't. Theres no moral wrong in killing them, except scaring others and traumatizing yourself by killing something that looks human. Hence the dehumanization. Because they need to be killed; they won't stop any other way. I fucking hate them for that.
  I see where youre coming from, and your arguments aren't completely invalid; I just think youre wrong in this specific case.
  I also think we see the same problem, and the fact there's only two options left, one of them we both agree is completely unconscionable and not worth mentioning, the other we agree really fucking sucks.
- They aren't people anymore. If they ever were. They differentiated into Israelis instead.
- It's so unbelievable I don't believe it.
  
  Would you like to see footage of it? I don't have the energy but it doesn't take long to find direct evidence of this happening, numerous times for years. The IDF purposely kills children. In one documented instance they even tied a Palestinian child to the hood of their vehicle as a shield. It sounds comically absurd and evil but this is what we know of.
  
  Yes I rememeber the kid they tied to the car. He didn't die though. The practice was outlawed by the Israeli Supreme Court. Hamas still using entire cities as human shields unfortunately. I'm not real concerned about the ~25 documented cases of Israeli's doing it.
  It's the report of snipers just sniping four year old kids that I find unbelievable, and don't believe.
  
  The IDF has killed more people than Hamas has militants, mostly women and children. Precision targetted aid vehicles multiple times. The bodies of children shot by sniper fire have been examined and confirmed several times even before this escalation. If you are still so deluded by propaganda to say that Hamas is using human shields then there is no hope of discussion. I pray you go to Gaza yourself to witness hell.
  
  There are zero confirmed reports of snipers killing little kids. How does glancing at a body determine if a shot was fired by a sniper rifle or a ricochet stray bullet from a firefight four blocks away? Have you seen what a sniper rifle does to a body? Doesn't leave much to examine. Doesn't look much different from a hundred other kinds of traumatic injuries, especially without an autopsy.
  There are reports. All kinds of reports. A lot of them are third and fourth hand. Virtually all of them are unverified.
  By my dude, building five hundred miles of tunnels in an area only 25 miles wide is literally using the entire area above the tunnels as human shields.
  This is a good example of anti semitism. Hamas uses 2.5 million people as a human shield and that's perfectly fine with you. They get a pass because the news makes you sad. But not Israel. They used twenty five people as human shields and in your mind that's a war crime. That double standard doesn't make any sense, unless of course you give Hamas a pass because they are fielding soldiers to kill Jews. Seems kind of like that's the case. I mean, it's a very stark and obvious double standard.
  
  There have been actual independent autospies done, I don't mean a quick glance at a body. And I would build tunnels too if my neighbor had a history of bombing me and seizing my terrority.
  Every non-state militant group is claimed to use the civilian population as human shields. This simply isn't true, it's rhetoric to justify the bombing because it's simpler than fighting on the ground. In assymetric warfare a resistance group has no choice but to be active in the place they are stuck at. Even if they were using human shields, it shows the IDF is heartless because they have no concern for any civilian deaths, including Israeli hostages.
  It's like if a bank robber took a hostage and a cop just blasted through them, killing half the bank. That would be horrific and unnecessary murder.
  
  More like if a bank robber took a hostage and the police bulldozed their house, then the rest of the block "just to be sure" and "to send a message".
  
  They could, I don't know, surrender, release the hostages, call for elections, etc., maybe have even slight tolerance to other cultures and try participating in trade? Nobody made Gaza put such short sighted leadership in charge. They don't have to choose to be isolated theocratic extremists with a singular purpose of ridding the holy land of infidels, labeled by all of the free world as a terrorist organization. There'd be peace in Gaza tomorrow if Hamas gave themselves up today. Even Japan eventually surrendered.
  
  If Hamas wasn't there, an even more effective group would emerge to fight Israel. The offensive on Oct 7th was by a coalition of groups. You say no one made Gaza put them in charge, but Israel has spent millions propping up Hamas. They were chosen by Israel specifically because of their unpalatable extremism. Israel has supported Hamas materially while taking steps to thwart other groups. Israel has used all avenues possible for years to create the situation we see now.
  
  Sounds like they had good reason to prop up Hamas at times to consolidate the most insane, most extreme religious ideologues, and it seems obvious that's the way to deal with such intellectual contagions. Like what is it you think Hamas believes in, as far as social order, jurisprudence, and justice? These are actual religious fascists who what to cleanse their holy land of infidels so that a few men can rule as absolute theocratic dictators whose ideas of law, morality, and human rights change with the wind, and they think that this is the actual future in store for them because God has chosen so.
  I haven't looked at your post history but I'm virtually certain that you are lucky Israel and Egypt would prevent you from crossing Gaza's border, because Hamas would almost certainly kill you for your opinions on government, like immediately.
  
  What tf does it matter what they believe when there is an ongoing slaughter of thousands of people? Palestine is more than Hamas. You say Hamas is evil but it's a good thing Israel put them in place? You are seriously heartless. I pray Israel is destroyed. According to your logic, it would be justified to kill every other Israeli at random to stop religious extremists in their government.
  
  The IDF have been demolishing residential buildings after seizing them. The IDF destroyed medical equipment, supplies and set fires on floors of al-Shifa hospital after raiding it. They target journalists in their home and kill their entire families with air strikes. Can you tell me the 'good reason' for these acts? What reason do you have for supporting atrocities like what Israel has been doing for years?
  
  A brain scan shows a bullet lodged in the skull of an eight-year-old Palestinian girl. Photograph: Courtesy Dr Vanita Gupta
  
  Detailing of children killed by sniper fire (graphic video)
  
  Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967. I didn't realize so much was documented in one place, if you want to read about what's been happening, the full pdf is on the page with citations.
  
  There are reports of 500 miles of tunnels and Hamas using people as sheild.
  Idf showing 2 tunnels and claiming 500 miles is just as valid as showing 300 deaths and claiming genocide. If you can trust the first then trust the second too.
  That Israelis are genocidal maniacs.
  
  There's one way to stop them. Treat them like we should have treated Nazi high command after the war.
  If we do decide to leave some alive, do not let them leave Palestine, ever, under any conditions. Do not let them own property. Do not let them hold management positions. Let them live only on the charity of the Palestinian people, and be allowed to die if it is not forthcoming.
  
  you're sick
  
  There are zero confirmed reports of snipers killing little kids.
  I guess it depends on how you define "little kids".
  14 year old girl?
  https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/2/8/israeli-sniper-kills-palestinian-girl-in-front-of-gaza-hospital
  6 year old girl?
  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/10/body-of-6-year-old-killed-in-deliberate-israeli-fire-found-after-12-days
  Boy of unknown age?
  https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231225-an-israeli-sniper-targeted-a-palestinian-childs-hand-in-gaza/
  8 and 15 year old?
  https://english.ahram.org.eg/News/513138.aspx
  14 year old boy?
  https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_shoot_kill_14_year_old_palestinian_boy_in_al_far_a_refugee_camp
  As the OP notes, this is nothing new.
  9 year old in 2019:
  https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-21/ty-article/.premium/the-protest-dispersed-then-an-israeli-sniper-shot-a-9-year-old-boy-in-the-head/0000017f-e3ff-d9aa-afff-fbffde890000
  14 year old in 2004:
  https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/103643
  
  You have to be joking right now with these links?
  First one is a 56 second TikTok video with no credible reporting attached to it. Just the bald statements of someone in social media and some video clips that do not show any gunfire whatsoever. Hardly proves the kid was intentionally sniped. Is this what you accept as credible evidence of something? Also, like, Al Jazeera? Qatari state media with no credibility when it comes to Gaza. They followed none of the usual standards of journalistic integrity. Very clear state sponsored agenda. Obviously they are exaggerating and serving up the most scandalous, unverified "reports" and portraying them as fact. Next.
  Second link, another Al Jazeera, this one is a third hand report that does not have anything to do with your claim that Israel is sniping kids. Even giving you an assumption that every fact alleged is true, at best it shows that the IDF shot a car that happened to have a kid in it. Obviously there are cars all over the place in Gaza, and so the IDF clearly isn't just going in and lighting up any car that they see. Perhaps this car was driving toward the tank that shot it? It is not proof that Israel knowingly targeting a kid, and it has nothing to do with snipers.
  Third link, MEMo this time, also Qatari state media, a 15 second clip with a bald allegation that the kid's hand got shot by a sniper. Nothing in this link doesn't prove that the claim isn't entirely made up by Qatari State media and slapped onto a 15 second clip of a kid with a blurred out hand. You really accept that as proof that the IDF intentionally sniped this kid? How can the kid or the doctor or anyone seeing this know it was sniper fire and not a ricochet, or a piece of shrapnel and not even a bullet?
  Fourth link, now jumping over to Egyptian state media. Still liars but with different motives. At least in this one they concede the kid was trespassing in a secured military area. The description doesn't sound like sniper fire though, sounds like automatic rifles. That's a far stretch from lining up right on a kid and blasting for no reason.
  Fifth one, sounds legit even after sorting through the the extra innuendo and looking at the reported facts. Should be investigated. The tenor of your allegation is that Israeli snipers are literally just out plinking kids. This kid was on top of a building near a firefight and an active special forces raid, watching it go down. Maybe they thought he had a weapon or was acting as a spotter. If the special forces, trained sniper plinked a kid without following rules of engagement, the sniper should spend the rest of their life in a military prison. But I think Netanyahu is like Trump, promotes people who would let this guy off, like that sniper Trump pardoned
  That's all the time I have right now.
  
  I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Israel has murdered over 10,000 kids in Gaza. Snipers aside. It's absolutely inexcusable.
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war
  "Children account for more than one in three of the more than 32,000 people killed in Israel’s months-long assault on Gaza, according to the Palestinian health ministry. Tens of thousands more young people have suffered severe injuries, including amputations."
  And, again, not new. Israel has been doing this for DECADES.
  "Israeli and foreign human rights groups have documented a long history of snipers firing on unarmed Palestinians, including children, in Gaza and the West Bank."
  
  They documented it with the same articles you documented it with.
  Then all just cite each other and then ask for more donations, round and round.
  
  Again, because Israel has been doing this FOR DECADES.
  
  Dude they post this shit on their own social media accounts, individually and officially. Monsters exist.
  
  Even South Africa hasn't made that claim to the ICJ because of how bullshit it is. Twitter isn't real life.
  
  Dude. Ive seen it? Like with my eyes while my roommate was browsing his feed? And he's not even a super geopolitics kinda guy.
  Ive read their official shit. How many sources from their own government, official spokespeople, generals, and cabinet level staff, saying 'we are doing a genocide, our strategy is warcrimes x y and z' would it take to convince you? Give me a number, and I'll provide links.
  
  Then why do they all post videos of them doing kitschy shit while shooting children on all their social media feeds?
  Do you admit that if it was real, the correct course of action would be to turn every inch of ground the Palestinians don't want preserved to fucking glass, and kill any scum that run for the border? To just bomb until nothing moves, then send in crews to clean up anything hiding underground?
  That if it was real, and they felt like they were losing, one could expect they would shift resources away from defense to try and finish the extermination, and feel noble about it?
  
  I saw this article and thought of this conversation https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war
  Doctors perform CPR on child with gunshot wound to the head(GRAPHIC WARNING)
  
  Yeah some of the accounts in these link/articles are the same accounts of the ones linked above by Jordan. You can't tell without taking notes if you're reading 10 accounts of 10 kids or like in this thread 10 accounts of four or five kids, and they all just cite to each other.
  The video you linked is sourced entirely from Al Jazeera reports of "reports." Same self interested reports that all say no Hamas fighters have ever been killed, no buildings have tunnels under them, nobody fired any rockets from the area, and all dead kids were sniped in cold blood. An an obviously incredible, broken record.
  
  Everyone hates Israel https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/05/six-months-war-gaza-israel-benjamin-netanyahu-palestinians-hamas
  Death to anyone who supports the genocide state

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