10mo ago

The GOP can't leave MAGA — "Americans must electorally mercy-kill the Republican Party"

www.salon.com The GOP can't leave MAGA — "Americans must electorally mercy-kill the Republican Party"

An ex-MAGA activist warns "no civic savior is coming" as Donald Trump's cognitive decline becomes undeniable

An ex-MAGA activist warns "no civic savior is coming" as Donald Trump's cognitive decline becomes undeniable

What if Donald Trump defeats President Biden and takes control of the White House in 2025? He has already announced his plans to become the country’s first dictator, and to launch a reign of terror and revenge against his so-called enemies. As detailed in documents such as Project 2025, Agenda 47, and elsewhere, the infrastructure is being created right now to put Trump's neofascist plans to end multiracial pluralistic democracy in effect on “day one." The so-called resistance will not have the courtesy of ramping up or mobilizing to stop Dictator Trump’s onslaught. It will be a “shock and awe” campaign visited upon the American people.

Dictator Trump’s reign of terror will be made even worse by the fact that as shown during recent speeches, interviews, and at other events he appears to be encountering severe difficulties in cognition, language, and memory.

In a series of recent conversations with me here at Salon, Dr. John Gartner, a prominent psychologist and contributor to the bestselling book "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President," has issued this warning: “Not enough people are sounding the alarm, that based on his behavior, and in my opinion, Donald Trump is dangerously demented. In fact, we are seeing the opposite among too many in the news media, the political leaders and among the public. There is also this focus on Biden's gaffes or other things that are well within the normal limits of aging. By comparison, Trump appears to be showing gross signs of dementia. This is a tale of two brains. Biden's brain is aging. Trump's brain is dementing.”

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Here's the thing, I'm not sure I'd totally classify Trumpism as a high control org. It certainly has aspects of it, but it probably more closely resembles the hippy movement of the 60s (from which many cults did spring). The only real core belief is how awesome trump is. Beyond that it's a bunch of fringe and frayed beliefs based whatever that individual might believe.
For example, I have black in-laws that are also trump supporters (yeah.. I know) who are convinced that Trump isn't racist AND that trump has this secret plan that would have made all black people fabulously wealthy, Had Joe biden not stolen the election. It was something that was always on the cusp of happening were it not for "the deep state".
I don't think this is a mainstream trump belief but I now have to wonder how many trumpist have these sorts of special whacky beliefs untethered from the reality of who trump is.
But then there's another phenomena that seems somewhat unique to trump which is, when he says something they do not like it's "He didn't say that. Oh, he did say that? Well he didn't mean that, it was just something he said for X reason". That is, they don't actually care about what Trump says or does, they care about what he represents. Trump can't really command his followers super effectively because half the time they are going to think he's "just being trump". This is also where it's scary because a number of his followers want violence and I don't think trump could stop them if they started down that path.
- I don’t think this is a mainstream trump belief but I now have to wonder how many trumpist have these sorts of special whacky beliefs untethered from the reality of who trump is.
  As a former Jehovah's Witness myself, I can see parallels here. There are often things believed by rank and file members that don't match up with what people at the top are saying.
  For example, if you were to ask regular JWs what the doctrine says about the Big Bang theory, you would get an answer consistent with most fundamentalists Christians--that is, throwing it in the same bucket as evolution. However, I've also gone over the actual published material on the subject, and it's not actually obvious what the official stance is. Much of what has been written in official material is along the lines of "the Big Bang shows that science agrees that the universe has a beginning, just like Genesis says". It never quite comes right out and approves it, but it never strongly denies it, either. It's a major contrast from evolution, where the official stance is quite clear.
  They seem to be fully aware that the rank and file think one thing, but the official doctrine in place is something else. I find that even many former members are surprised to learn this.
  I bring this up to say that you might be seeing a similar thing among your relatives. There are all sorts of crazy Trump beliefs that derive from nothing the man has actually done or said. People will imprint their own thoughts and hopes into places where there is otherwise a vacuum of things the cult tells you to think.
  
  Oh hey, I'm exmormon myself! Isn't it fun how these high demand religions drive you into researching what makes cults in the first place :D
  We sort of have an analogy within mormonism though it's a bit different. For mormons, the issue is almost the opposite, rather than no ever having an official stance on things mormonism has had official stances on just about everything but then it's slowly walked them back and distanced itself from the wacky belief. However, that means that the rank and file still remember, hold onto, and retell things that the org itself would rather go away. For example, blacks and the priesthood. Mormons would much rather the doctrine and leaders weren't so explicit about the "curse of Cain".
  Similarly, mormonism has gone everywhere from denying evolution to even denying astronomy (They used to literally believe that the sun was Heaven, the moon lesser heaven, and the stars even lesser heaven). That's actually why mormons were some of the first moon landing conspiracy theorists.
  We do have some off track beliefs with little to no teachings, but mormons are a lot quicker to try and tamp down and eliminate those. For example, heavenly mother.
  The end result is you do still have people teaching weird non-doctrinal (or previously doctrinal) while the church tries to back away and kill them off.
  I know this is a bit of a sidetrack, but are you still in contact with anyone that's a JW and are they all Trumpers? Trumpism took mormons by storm, they are some of the most dedicated adherents to it. I'm wondering if the same thing happened with other high demand religions.
  
  I don't have any particular contact with JWs. My impression is that the rules against contacting ex members among the Latter Day Saints is much weaker than JWs, who have a strong prohibition against it.
  That said, JWs in general are supposed to be politically neutral, which means not voting and not explicitly taking sides. Now, during my time in, I heard plenty of people express opinions that would tend to land one direction or another, and I had similar opinions myself. Most of the ones I heard actually tended more towards the Democratic party than Republicans, but that might be because I grew up in a city and people absorb the opinions of other people around them.
  Most ex JWs go either towards Democrats or much further to the left.
  
  Your impression is correct. I knew it was bad for exJW but hoping it wasn't still pretty universally bad.
  Sorry to hear you had to go through that. I can't imagine how big of a mindfuck that would be coupled with the mindfuck of "everything I was taught was a lie". Just the latter was one of the worst experience of my life.
  I hope you are in a much better place now.
  
  Thanks! It's been over a decade now and I have new friends.
  
  Latter-day Saints have absolutely no prohibition against interacting with former members of the Church. Unfortunately, many former members leave under difficult circumstances and distance themselves from their friends who remain in the Church. We would love nothing more than to stay in contact with them and still be friends.
  
  Unfortunately, many former members leave under difficult circumstances and distance themselves from their friends who remain in the Church. We would love nothing more than to stay in contact with them and still be friends.
  Many former mormons, like myself, are distanced by their "friends" as soon as they leave. It's a two way street and all the responsibility isn't on a single party.
  Often times that "friendship" is contingent on church attendance and belief.
  Have you ever asked a former member why they left? What did they say?
  
  Have you ever asked a former member why they left? What did they say?
  I helped a person rejoin the Church when I was a missionary. It was obviously not a representative experience, but he had left at a time in his life when he was angry at members of his ward for not supporting him the way he felt he should have been supported. At the time it seemed he had felt a bit more entitled to special attention than was reasonable (keeping in mind the Church has a lay ministry and we're all just regular people with regular lives outside of church), and he had also tried to have an affair with someone's wife, IIRC. He had requested his records to be withdrawn because he wanted members to stop contacting him. He was a lot different when I met him than when he left the Church, and had a lot of rough life experiences that emphasized the value it brought to his life.
  I have not had any close friends or family leave the Church, so I haven't had any opportunities to actually have a discussion about it with anyone else other than online. Those online interactions have been mostly hate-filled and vitriolic by the former members.
  Like most members of the Church, where I live I am a religious minority. It's far more common for people to ask me questions about my faith than for me to interact with former members.
  
  I haven’t had any opportunities to actually have a discussion about it with anyone else other than online
  Consider why you made the statement that former members distance themselves and that church members just want to be friends. You haven't actually experienced or seen that right? So what made you assume that is what is going on?
  One of the more difficult parts about being a former member is the assumptions about why we left. Obviously, everyone is unique, but rarely have I heard an active member actually say the reasons I've most heard from my family and friends and online that have left.
  It would be a bit like me spouting off the lies from an evangelical anti-mormon tract as if they were fact.
  To be clear, I really do appreciate that you are being open and honest here. I'm not trying to be a dick or to deconvert you. I'm mostly just pushing for understanding of people that have different views from you. After all, to the root of this conversation and why I'm so against trump, it's that the politics he represents is ultimately that of intolerance. The best way to fight intolerance is to foster understanding.
  
  Trumpism took mormons by storm, they are some of the most dedicated adherents to it.
  Plenty of us despise him, though, and one of the highest leaders of the Church has donated to the Democratic party in the past.
  
  Oh wow, I need to update my mental facts here.
  https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/trumps-problem-with-mormon-voters-is-getting-worse/
  Early demographics for Mormons was something like 70% approval which had them as one of the most trumpy demographics. However, it looks like that approval has taken a significant nose dive. With a majority now disfavoring him.
  If I can ask. Did you previously support Trump? If so, what changed to make you despise him? Also, in the up coming election what are you planning on doing (assuming both Biden and Trump are the nominees, which seems obvious at this point).
  I have known anti trump Mormons, but my understanding is they were the minority (apparently not).
  
  I have never supported Trump. I was serving my mission in 2016 when he was elected and I couldn't find a polling place to vote, and I sort of had a favorable impression of him at first just because my family are big Trump supporters. However, many of his policies and his hateful rhetoric are impossible to square with my religious beliefs, which I consider to be mostly centrist. I think most Latter-day Saints are in a similar boat. We are serious about our religion and aren't going to support a political leader who goes against many of our most deeply-held moral doctrines.
  The most important thing we believe are the commandments given by Jesus Christ in Matthew 22:36-40. These are summarized as "love God with all your being" and "love everyone around you as well as you love yourself". I can't see how it could be possible to support Trump and sincerely believe in those commandments at the same time.
  For me, however, the final straw was when Trump started speculating on live television about injecting light into people to fight the Covid virus. It was utter loony talk and I was completely disgusted. January 6th didn't surprise me at all (Trump was laying the groundwork for it a year in advance) and at that point I almost registered as a Democrat. Now that Trump has taken control of the Republican party I'm definitely registering as a Democrat before November.
  
  I can’t see how it could be possible to support Trump and sincerely believe in those commandments at the same time.
  It's not hard to see. Trump courts christian nationalism pretty heavily and that allows a lot of religious people to overlook his foibles. Sort of a "Who cares if he's immoral, he'll let us have bible reading class in school".

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