12mo ago

Historians meet Biden for a White House lunch, urge him to speak out more forcefully

www.politico.com Historians meet Biden for a White House lunch, urge him to speak out more forcefully

Democracy may be on the ballot. Less clear is what was on the menu.

President Joe Biden hosted a small group of scholars and historians for lunch on Wednesday as he gears up for a speech framing the upcoming election as a battle for the nation’s democracy.

The discussion revolved around “ongoing threats to democracy and democratic institutions both here in America and around the world, as well as the opportunities we face as a nation,” the White House said in a statement.

Princeton’s Eddie Glaude Jr. and Sean Wilentz, Harvard’s Annette Gordon-Reed, Yale’s Beverly Gage and Boston College’s Heather Cox Richardson were among the attendees, as well as presidential biographer — and occasional Biden speech writer — Jon Meacham.

Attendees were tight-lipped about what was discussed at the gathering. One would only go so far as to say they “talked about American history and its bearing on the present — a lively exchange of ideas.”

Another person in the room, who like the others was not authorized to speak publicly about a private meeting, said the historians urged the president “to call out the moment for what it is.” In blunt terms, the academics discussed looming threats to the nation’s democracy and warned about the slow crawl of authoritarianism around the globe.

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I think it's important for Biden to call out this moment for what it is. It will be difficult to do, though, without alienating the people in the country who have incorporated Trump into their political identity. When you point out that their emperor has no clothes, they will feel exposed themselves and lash out at the truth teller.
Biden has to try and build a coalition of all sorts of people to meet this moment. Especially all the people who are disillusioned with the situation in Gaza right now. It amazes me how all those people would think Trump would be any better at that. Trump would sell out Gaza to build a resort if we let him.
- Trump would gleefully see Gaza get destroyed. He would call on Israel to not slow down and allow aid to pass through, but do it faster. Like, “have it done by next Monday so I can take the credit for it”.
  
  Then call on biden to act to stop the genocide and there wont be an issue.
  
  Biden doesn’t control Netanyahu and Netanyahu would much rather have Trump back in power. Why the fuck would he do him any favors
  
  Biden doesn’t control Netanyahu
  Did Netanyahu force Biden to sell him weapons?
  
  Hell did he force him to bypass congress to do so? Twice?
  
  Or veto a UN resolution for ceasefire?
- It will be difficult to do, though, without alienating the people in the country who have incorporated Trump into their political identity
  They're already alienated, there's likely nothing Biden could possibly do that would earn him their votes.
  The question is- can Biden afford to alienate the folks who are against US support of Israeli occupation and genocide? If they stay home, the GOP wrecking crew may get another 4 years of opportunity to dismantle American democracy. Is it safe to bet that they'll hold their nose and vote against the greater evil?
  I'm not 100% sure how much of the Democratic party (or independents) would find it to be a deal-breaker if Biden were to take a critical stance of Israeli occupation and genocide, nor am I certain of how many likely-democratic voters find it a deal-breaker if Biden continues to give Israel military support without conditions. It seems likely to me that if Biden doesn't address this issue directly and clearly, he will lose one or the other of these groups and I worry he can't afford that in 2024
  
  The great part is that there's nothing Biden can do that would be a deal breaker. I must vote for him because the way we vote is stupid. There's nothing that can make me not because the alternative is objectively worse.
  So it's no wonder the DNC doesn't care what I think.
  
  Or and hear me out here we could allow them to see the consequences of their own actions.
  Fucking fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me
  
  The people who need to feel consequences will not feel the consequences. People I care about will feel the consequences. The people running the Democratic Party will feel nothing.
  
  We tried that in 2016 and got Trump.
- We are just sick of supporting people that support genocidal actions.
  You guys have fun with genocidin biden, if he’s on the ballot I’m just staying home and staying quiet for the next 4 years
  No I don’t care about game theory or blah blah blah.
  I care that I do not show support for anyone who is helping to kill innocent children.
  You guys still have a chance to actually run a primary.
  Straight up fuck anyone who is VBNMW
  
  If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice -- Rush, Freewill
  Not choosing equates to choosing the default. You may not care about game theory, but you and others cannot get away from the consequences of it.
  In this election, not choosing = voting for Trump
  
  I have a question, does that mean if a trump supporter doesn’t vote for him, then it counts as a vote for Biden?
  
  Yes, but Trump voters are more likely to vote so the effect isn't equal.
  Modern Republicans are authoritarians, they do what they are told, Democrats are less so and as a party must form a coalition of sorts. It's easier to convince subgroups of potential Democratic voters that voting is pointless, especially when that subgroup is themselves authoritarian (e.g. "tankies") and not only are the Republicans putting out that message, but their own leaders are telling them that voting is pointless effectively throwing the vote to the right.
  I'm pretty sure this position is intentional, most tankies I've spoken to are effectively accelerationists even if they won't admit it.
  
  This is a lie and false narrative. If people would have been voting third party since 1992, there might be viable candidates.
  It's 100% DNC fault for rigged system where they picked Hillary because she directly paid them millions. They are picking Biden because he's directly funneling hundreds of millions to DNC.
  Any healthy sane organization would have had a primary with a few strong candidates instead of an unelectable senile genocide supporter. Period. If people are worried about Trump, run a real candidate, don't tell people you have to vote for whatever shitbag DNC has selected because they get salary and probably steal money from DNC.
  
  Our voting system is "first past the post", this means there are mathematical realities that are not ideal.
  We live in a world with entrenched powers that take advantage of this voting system to maintain power. The fact of the matter is, third party candidates have little chance of winning in a normal situation, when it gets as heated and tribal as it is now, there's no realistic chance of ONE third party candidate pulling enough votes to win the election. The result of this is diluting votes for the major two candidates. The one with more diluted votes loses.
  I don't like Biden, I don't like Democrats, but I'm not going to risk a Trump presidency (which will undoubtedly be even worse, I mean, you don't think that the guy that moved the embassy to Jerusalem is gonna end the genocide do you?) by voting third party.
  If you want this to change, push for voting system reforms, there are mathematically superior systems out there (proportional representation, ranked choice, etc), we just need the political will to change the law, but too many people on the left-ish have become convinced that accelerationism and willingness to put others at risk for ideological purity is the righteous position.
  Let me be clear, the righteous position NEVER involves harming innocent people or putting innocent people at risk.
  We are trapped in this system, the way out is to bust the trap, not ignore it and expect to win.
  
  I don't blame the accelerationists. What's the difference between killing a million people in ten years with a revolution or killing ten million people over a century by trying to use the trap to break the trap?
  
  The difference is we can't predict the next ten years let alone the next century, so to assume our heinous actions can be cancelled out by some potential future that makes it all worth it is simply a silly argument. You're betting the lives and well being of others that we win. There is no guarantee a revolution results in successful, sustainable communism. It's quite likely a revolution results in millions of dead, massive environmental damage, and a generation with PTSD, only to result in fascism.
  
  I agree with this. Which is why I've lost all hope, and will just wait for the system to collapse itself. People will die, but it's not like I can stop that with the structures we have in place.
  
  I don’t give a shit about it turning into communism.
  I give a shit about change, drastic, and soon, because it is the only thing that is going to save us in the long run.
  Honestly, I don’t even know where I stand anymore.
  Apparently the political party I thought was worth it is just… not what I thought it was.
  Like I thought we were all in it together and then it turned out that you guys just don’t give a shit about very serious stuff.
  Like I love all my trans and gay and minority Homies, but at the end of the day, they’re all still alive and well, and we can’t even get you guys to stop sending fucking weapons!
  We sure as fuck, couldn’t find artillery shells for Ukraine, but damned if we didn’t find it up for fucking israel.
  Why the fuck should we condone someone taking fucking artillery shells that were destined for Ukraine and sending them to fucking israel?!?
  Why should we condone someone who does not give a fuck about helping people commit genocidal actions?
  Why should I be on that guys team?
  We were doing so good for once, we were helping the underdogs save their nation from Russian invaders, not great though, we still held back at every fucking opportunity.
  We had no American boots on the ground!
  Now we have a whole fleet of Americans in danger.
  Plus, tons of other countries who have to put all of their people at risk, because we can’t get the fuck out of Middle Eastern bullshit.
  We have a lot of room in America, AFAIK we have every type of biome in America, let’s just give them some room here, hell if they want solitude we have a ton of national parks we could just cut out a square of.
  It would piss off the Native Americans a shit ton, but they aren’t israel so most people won’t care.
  That was being facetious, but I am serious about letting them move here, there aren’t even ten million of them, that’s barely bigger than New York.
  If we had just given those guys, the fucking shit that they asked for when they asked for it instead of fucking waiting forever, this war would look a whole lot damn different.
  I’m not even talking about the F-16s and shit that we’re still too pussy to fucking send, and all the other shit they’ve asked for that we haven’t given them, I am only talking about the things that we ended up sending them anyway.
  Let someone attack israel, and then the fucking gloves are off though.
  If we would’ve fucking sent aid trucks into Gaza when this shit first started, the killing of thousands of innocent civilians obviously not when Israel first got attacked, with one fucking soldier, driving it, and told them to do what they were going to do, a ton of people would still be alive right now, children wouldn’t be going hungry right now, living in fear right now, because there’s no way in hell that the fucking israelis would bite the hand that feeds them.
  We could’ve stopped almost every bit of that bombing if we had just said “No, you’re not getting shit until you calm down.” and then sat down and made a real plan.
  We could have released the weapons to them in batches that way they could never go too crazy.
  Like we’ve done some dirty shit to other countries, America is in no way innocent on that front, but it wasn’t supposed to be a fucking lesson plan.
  Honestly, I don’t think that we’ve done as much damage in so short of a time since World War II, at least Vietnam, as they have done in less than three months.
  What they can’t kill, they destroy, they keep calling me the places they told people they would be safe.
  They’re still human by all means, they are just being really shitty ones right now, and we are supporting them.
  
  Apparently the political party I thought I was worth it it’s just not the one I thought it was.
  I was where you are in 2015. Stop thinking it will get better and it will get better.
  
  I disagree that rcv etc will help. Ive looked extensively into voting audits and all the alternative voting. While useful on a local level there are real problems for national election performed at state and county administration in US.... not to mention changing every state constitution.
  RCV can be gamed, it's nearly impossible to recount or transparent audits, with the exception of removing anonymous ballots (yes even with crypto because hackers or admin or two party key holders can reverse the crypto if you have receipt type proof)
  A viable third party could have happened by now, except for decades of the crying about spoiler candidates and throwaeay votes and all the usual fake excuses
  
  In a certain kind of way, NOT voting for the party you support in a two-party run-off does amount to a fractional vote in favour of your opponent.
  I can't draw a 2x2 table here, but I'll try to describe it. In the population of voters, you have 20 supporters of party A and 20 supporters of party B. So, there is 50% support for each party in the population of 40 potential voters. During the actual vote, 10 people in party A vote and 15 people in party B vote. The vote spread is 5 votes in favour of party B. Using proportions, that's 40% for party A and 60% for party B. Using these proportions on the original 40 people, this is the equivalent of a 16 people voting for party A and 24 people voting for party B, even though there are only 20 actual supporters of party B in the population! So, differential voting rates result in a higher proportion of votes going to the party with the higher voting rate, which means that staying home is not neutral. It is effectively a fractional vote for the other guy, where that fraction is a function of the differential voting rate among the two parties' supporters.
  Of course, if enough left-wing supporters stay home, it might go so far as to lead to a win for the radical right under Trump. If that happens, all those on the left who refused to show support for Biden will be just as guilty as the MAGA idiots.
  
  I’ll give you that that is a fair point, but the impact of my action doesn’t outweigh my conviction.
  Hopefully more people aren’t like me I guess?
  There is no way Israel would’ve had the balls to go as hard as they did. If they did not have us sitting there to make sure no one else got involved.
  We supported the bully, or at least someone it turns out it was just as bad as the fucking other guy, and then we continue to do it after we saw all the dead children.
  I’ve said it before I’ll say it again, I understand where they’re coming from but they’re still wrong, they’re still the bad guys in this, it just turns out there’s no good guys, but they keep calling themselves the good guys.
  
  You guys have fun with genocidin biden, if he’s on the ballot I’m just staying home and staying quiet for the next 4 years
  "genocidin Biden"? No wonder you're not voting, you sound like you're 12. Go to your room and think about what you just said, young human.
  The situation in Gaza is tragic, and can't be solved with a soundbite. But anyone who thinks outcomes will be better with Trump in office is delusional. Trump has proven that he doesn't really care about human rights, he cares about enriching himself. The Palestinians will be sold to the highest bidder. Is that what you want?
  
  Browbeating is satisfying, and is less work than addressing the issue and trying to make progress toward a resolution. Do you suppose that your response made it more likely that the person you responded to will behave in the way you want?
  Dismissiveness indicates an aversion to introspection.
  
  I am not averse to introspection, I did a lot of it before I made my decision.
  Morally, I can not support someone who wants to kill Gazans so badly that he did a run around around congress, twice.
  He even confirms that he is not concerned about it, just the optics on israel.
  
  I am not averse to introspection
  I didn't say you were. I was referring to your interlocutor.
  
  Ah, my apologies then.
  
  Dismissiveness also comes from fatigue, which we have in spades right now
  
  Dismissiveness also comes from fatigue, which we have in spades right now
  Yes, people who aren't as supportive of genocide as you'd prefer are certainly fatiguing.
  
  Since when has what I wanted been a factor in an election?
  
  On the way should be Genocidin’ Biden with a capital g and an apostrophe for proprieties sake
  
  I’m 37 and voted blue from 18.
  The party is officials are ignoring my concerns therefore, I no longer support them.
  Feel free to do so if you’d like, I don’t intend on standing in your way.
  You did not have my back, and now I won’t have yours
  
  Cool, so you're just a fucking idiot then, got it
  
  Loyalty is a 2 way street. I fronted the party some and they fucked me when it came time to pay it back.
  I’ll give you some good life advice, never give your loyalty to someone who ignores you.
  I’ll tell you what, maybe you can go bypass congressional oversight to do what you want.
  Maybe you can give unlimited support to him, but I won’t help a bad person.
  
  I’ll give you some good life advice, never give your loyalty to someone who ignores you.
  We're talking about voting, not loyalty.
  Maybe you can give unlimited support to him, but I won’t help a bad person.
  Of course you will. Choosing to throw away your vote is a choice nonetheless.
  
  I mean, if I really disagreed that much I could just vote for the other guy out of spite.
  I support the rest of what y’all stand for enough not to help the enemy, I just can’t stand the thought of standing next to you anymore.
  
  I like it more than genocide Joe, hell at least I still capitalize his name.
  
  im voting for him regardless of his stance on israel/palestine. How is staying home going to help palestine??? Even for palestine, biden is the lesser evil on who runs the us.
  
  Don't try to apply logic here. This shit doesn't make any since. Trump would 100% toss Ukraine to Russia and Palestine to Israel. All either countries would have to do is stuff some money in his pocket. They are fucking delussional thinking that theres some other option here. There isn't. Our political system is not being overhauled for 2024. A new party is not arising. There are no new front runners for either party. Its gonna be Trump v Biden 2: Misinformation Boogaloo and these people really think Trump would do this gracefully and with the safety and peace of all nations in mind. They are steeped in madness.
  
  Look at the username. Obstinate child.
  
  lol
  
  and staying quiet for the next 4 years
  I doubt it lol
  
  Nope, I hate motherfuckers who removed about the president and then you find out they didn’t even bother to vote.
  I can at least respect the opposition when they removed they put in the time and effort to stand in fucking line or maybe even just mail in a form.
  
  Stupid troll
  
  I wish I was, this is honest to God how I feel anymore
  
  Okay, enjoy the genocide of your lgbtq+ and immigrant neighbors. You won't vote but the MAGA crowd will appear in full force.
  
  You're kind of helping his argument, no? His choice is support genocide of his LGBT+ neighbors or Palestinians? Neither option presented sounds worthy of a vote.
  
  It’s not an “or” question, it’s an“and”.
  
  And republicans are going to end the Israel-Palestine conflict? I don't think so
  
  You're so hell bent on making it a Republican vs Democrat thing. We should be primarying Biden out. They're both too old and need to go the fuck on.
  
  Whether you like it or not, until we get RCV, approval voting, STAR, or some other method better than first-past-the-post (we don't even have majority!), it is a Democrat vs. Republican thing. Which I should mention, is also how YOU framed it in your post. The only thing I'm pointing out is that if you choose the option that's bad for LGBTQ+, it's also just as bad for Palestinians as the other option is.
  
  This skios the part where the Dems act like Biden is the only candidate that can beat Trump. He may beat him, he also may beat him to his grave. He's too old and should be primaried out.
  
  Who would run instead? Harris? I haven't seen a single article about her. Bernie? The DNC would never do that. Biden is the incumbent, and what other good options are there?
  
  Finally someone who gets it!
  
  not really since the palestines situation will be the same or worse under turmp. so its a choice of some or more of.
  
  Democrats already jumped at the chance to support one genocide. Why should anyone trust them to not do it again at their earliest convenience?
  
  Republicans also jumped at the chance to feed Ukraine to Russia. Whats your point? Feed Ukraine to Russia so that Trump will protect Palestine? The Republicans already cut so much of Ukraine's funding that they are struggling. I really don't see what this better alternative is. We can't just say no. Too much of the country is okay with both parties.
  
  Whats your point?
  I made my point. You ignored it. You don't get to act like Democrats will protect anyone from genocide while they're actively supporting a genocide.
  They're not being shielded; they're just another entry on the "then they came for" list.
  
  And who will shield the needy and vulnerable? Who will come to their aide when the world simply stares? What is your alternative solution?
  
  And who will shield the needy and vulnerable?
  Who indeed? Democrats had some legitimacy when they claimed they would do that. Until recently.
  What is your alternative solution?
  I'd start with Democrats ceasing their support for genocide.
  
  The older Democrats and generation in general hold fast to Israel. Its what they're familiar with and have grown up "on their team". There is a divide in the age groups as the younger democratic officials support Palestine. What other elected officials of a different political party support Palestine and endorse it publicly? Do many Republicans? In American politics, those are your options without fundamental change to the voting system.
  
  What other elected officials of a different political party support Palestine and endorse it publicly? Do many Republicans? In American politics, those are your options without fundamental change to the voting system.
  I.
  AM.
  NOT.
  ADVOCATING.
  FOR.
  VOTING.
  FOR.
  ANOTHER.
  PARTY.
  
  You jumped into the chain that started with someone claiming voter apathy. What do you think I'm on about?
  
  What the hell makes you think they’ll change in the future?
  
  I don't. I think we need to change how our voting system works. We don't have time before the next election. Thats my rationale. You have to choose now, this year. Ranked choice is not being implemented. So, you're getting Trump or Biden most likely. With this shitty voting system, anybody spitefully withholding votes is helping Republicans make a Theocracy.
  
  Realistically, in real life, your other option is Republicans. Thats how American politics works. Until we fundamentally change the way our voting system works. So I'm curious what your rationale is. What are you going to do? Allow a man who straight up claimed he be a dictator to take over in spite? What is the goal?
  
  This is the third time you've ignored what I've said and accused me of saying something I haven't.
  
  You jumped in the chain literally about my reply to someone daying "have fun with genocidin biden". Thats part of the context. The democrats only have one thing going and its their lead not being a fucking psycho. We don't have time to implement ranked choice.voting across the country before this years elections. Thats all they have besides being centrist capitalists every else in the world, which is marginally better than raving theocrat. We need to change our system but we are forced to vote one more time first. Unless you have something better to propose.
  
  I'm still not saying that anyone should vote for another party. I pointed out that Democrats cannot be trusted to prevent genocide, since they are currently enabling one.
  Unless you have something better to propose.
  I've answered this already. Democrats should stop supporting genocide.
  
  Everybody does. Most US Politicians support Israel. Biden is handling this as shit as most other US politicians would. The list I shared is just newer congress members of congress too.
  
  How is voting for the lessser of two evils going to change anything for the better?
  
  You got a greater good to offer?
  
  I do but I can't afford the billion dollars it costs to get on the ballot
  
  You're killing trans children at home. Other out groups as well. Thanks. And thanks for sharing and encouraging others. This is helpful. I'll remember your bravery and honor and this moment and the chair I'm sitting in, when they are separating my family at the gas chamber in 6 or 7 years. Bc you didn't know how to read the room.
  
  You’re already voting to support that, you just want other people to pay that price for you.
  
  You think both sides are the same for trans kids? What are you, like 17?
  
  Are you cause you’re working really hard to twist what I said

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