Muslim Americans in swing states launch anti-Biden campaign
"We recognize that, in the next four years, our decision may cause us to have an even more difficult time. But we believe that this will give us a chance to recalibrate, and the Democrats will have to consider whether they want our votes or not."
That's gotta be one of the strangest reasonings I've heard in a while.
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“We don’t have two options. We have many options,” Jaylani Hussein, director of Minnesota’s Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) chapter, said at a press conference in Dearborn, Michigan, when asked about Biden alternatives. “We’re not supporting (former President Donald) Trump,” he said, adding that the Muslim community would decide how to interview other candidates.
This is the kind of meaningless statement I've been talking about in my argument. They are planning on not voting for Biden in historic swing states so that he loses and Trump wins. Them saying "We're not supporting Trump" doesn't mean anything if they help Trump win an election. They are empty words meant to save face. Another way to put it is this person is lying.
Literally and explicitly straight from the horse’s mouth. If you’re committed to addressing the arguments in good faith, you’ll admit that you are wrong now. Well, of course, unless you’re a troll or a complete idiot. And, no, that’s actually not a false dichotomy.*
The reality of that is so obvious, given what we know about our election system and the two parties we have to choose from, that simply stating the opposite isn't a compelling argument. Rather than trying to articulate why the opposite is true, your argument simply relies on ad hominem statements. But this topic has nothing to do with me and thus your argument isn't persuasive.
*actually it probably is, there are probably a number of other embarrassing reasons you might try to deny it. And based on how much you’ve simply ignored reality in this debate during while “arguing” in “good faith” I’m sure you’ll try. lol
Also, a good faith discussion doesn't mean one of the people arguing has to admit that they're wrong. I believe another person can see my arguments and not be convinced by them.
This is the kind of meaningless statement I’ve been talking about in my argument.
You're arguing that they are supporting Trump. They are literally and explicitly saying they don't support Trump. Yet pointing this out is "meaningless." Holy shit the lengths people will go to avoid admitting that they are wrong will never cease to amaze me.
Another way to put it is this person is lying.
So, maybe they are lying about not supporting Biden. We "can't know for sure" which way they are lying. So, as usual, your point is self-defeating and your flailing contradicts something you said earlier.
Let me guess: "I can claim they are lying when it suits my point. . .but when you can claim they are lying in the same exact way, that doesn't count!"
But "they're lying!" is classic. I'm cracking up over here.
Rather than trying to articulate why the opposite is true, your argument simply relies on ad hominem statements.
I literally just linked you an article with them saying something explicitly that proves you wrong. Trying to pretend that my arguments "rely" on the ad hominem is just a desperate attempt to protect your own ego.
But this topic has nothing to do with me and thus your argument isn’t persuasive.
If them telling you, outright, that they don't support Trump isn't going to persuade you that they don't support Trump, you're all but outright admitting that nothing will persuade you away from your delusion. At this point, I'm no longer trying to persuade you, it's just entertaining watching you lash out and flail around. I've never seen such a fragile, yet proud ego. . .so unwilling to admit they are wrong and at the same time stick it out. Most people would have either just admitted that they were wrong by this point, or slink off. You, however, wow. Impressive. To stick around while getting so repeatedly flogged. Amazing.
Also, a good faith discussion doesn’t mean one of the people arguing has to admit that they’re wrong.
Agreed.
I believe another person can see my arguments and not be convinced by them.
If this thread is any indication of how you typically argue, that probably happens a lot. lol
The fact that the statement is meaningless can be deduced from the fact we live in a two party system. Since one candidate must win and the other must lose the situation is a zero-sum game. We also know that Trump, as the presumed Republican candidate, will benefit from low voter turnout as all Republican candidates generally do. Not to mention these peoples' movement resets on the idea they can influence the election simply by not voting for Biden in order to punish the Democratic party. In short, we know the statement "We're not supporting Trump" is false, because all the available facts contradict it. All their statement proves is that they don't want to admit they are supporting Trump in the election.
I read the posted article and saw their claim that they don't support Trump. I did not take their word at face value because I saw the contradiction in their statement.
Your argument is good at making it seem like it won the debate and its aggressive nature makes it seem like it is constantly on the attack. But ultimately a lot of effort is wasted on posturing without delivering any substance with it. With half as much effort put at refuting my argument's central point, your arguments would be much more compelling.
In short, we know the statement “We’re not supporting Trump” is false, because all the available facts contradict it.
Except, of course, the fact that you can actually support pretty much anyone you want for POTUS and are not restricted to the nominees of two major parties, and the fact that they have openly said that they don't support Trump. I mean, those are only the most damning facts for your argument. There are plenty of others that we have hashed over that also demolish your self-contradictory position.
I read the posted article and saw their claim that they don’t support Trump. I did not take their word at face value because I saw the contradiction in their statement.
Of course not because it would force you to admit that you are wrong, and you're not arguing in good faith, but desperately trying to pretend that you are not not wrong. Just like a child.
But, of course, by accusing them of lying, this is also an ad hominem. Something you were hilariously and hypocritically up in arms about me doing just a little while ago. I'm shocked it took me this long to realize that that accusation was just a warning that you were going to do it at some point.
With half as much effort put at refuting my argument’s central point, your arguments would be much more compelling.
Your central point is absolutely demolished by the fact that they explicitly said they don't support Trump. Your central point relies 100% on claiming they are lying when you have zero evidence to support this accusation. All I've done throughout this debate is show how the same absurd logic you've used to justify your point can be used to justify claiming tons of people who are actually going to vote for Biden are actually Trump supporters. I can only presume this is because it would catch you in the net too, and you don't want to have to admit you are a Trump supporter. You are about as intelligent as one, so you would be among your kind.
Except, of course, the fact that you can actually support pretty much anyone you want for POTUS and are not restricted to the two major parties, and the fact that they have openly said that they don’t support Trump. I mean, those are only the most damning facts for your argument. There are plenty of others that we have hashed over that also demolish your self-contradictory position.
It is well understood no third party candidates or independent candidates have any chance at winning the presidential election. Choosing a candidate who has no chance of winning is the same as not voting for the purpose of counting votes. The only real options are Republicans or Democrats for presidential elections.
But, of course, by accusing them of lying, this is also an ad hominem. Something you were hilariously and hypocritically up in arms about me doing just a little while ago. I’m shocked it took me this long to realize that that accusation was just a warning that you were going to do it at some point.
This is not an ad hominem because I am pointing out the logical contradiction in their statement. Rather than directing my arguments at them, I am refuting their central point in their statement.
edit: Adding this to respond to your edit.
Your central point is absolutely demolished by the fact that they explicitly said they don’t support Trump.
Again, here is my refutation of their central point:
The fact that the statement is meaningless can be deduced from the fact we live in a two party system. Since one candidate must win and the other must lose the situation is a zero-sum game. We also know that Trump, as the presumed Republican candidate, will benefit from low voter turnout as all Republican candidates generally do. Not to mention these peoples’ movement resets on the idea they can influence the election simply by not voting for Biden in order to punish the Democratic party. In short, we know the statement “We’re not supporting Trump” is false, because all the available facts contradict it. All their statement proves is that they don’t want to admit they are supporting Trump in the election.
If you want to refute my central point in your argument, then direct your argument at this paragraph.
It is well understood no third party candidates or independent candidates have any chance at winning the presidential election.
Incorrect. It's unlikely, but "we can't know that for sure." Republicans were, at one point, "the third party." You can't keep going back to "what we likely know is true" because we've already established that "what is likely true" only matters when it helps your point, and ignored when it hurts it.
Choosing a candidate who has no chance of winning is the same as not voting for the purpose of counting votes.
I tend to agree here. Except when it comes to who you support for POTUS. If you're voting for a candidate, literally the thing that most shows your support for a candidate, you can't say they don't support the candidate they are literally voting for. Well, you can say it, but we've already established that you will say bat-shit crazy things in a desperate attempt to not be wrong.
This is not an ad hominem
No, it's absolutely an ad hominem. Like the most pure form of it. You are questioning their motives instead of what they are literally saying. It's a textbook case of it. Do you mind if I point some students to this in the future as a perfect example of the ad hominem?
If you want to refute my central point in your argument, then direct your argument at this paragraph.
Your central point is that they are supporting Trump. That paragraph of desperate nonsense that kind of loosely resembles logic is your argument for that point. But make no mistake about it, your central point is that they are Trump supporters. Something they explicitly have said is untrue, and the only refutation you have against what they have expressly said is an unsupported accusation that they are lying, which is an ad hominem. You're argument falls apart because it relies on an unsupported attack on their character for it to be true, and you pointed out early how bad arguments that rely on ad hominems are. Of course, you were wrong at the time that my argument hinged on an ad hominem, I was just insulting someone who kind of deserves it, but you were right that if your argument relies on it, like yours does, that it's pretty clear how "unconvincing" your argument is.
Incorrect. It’s unlikely, but “we can’t know that for sure.” Republicans were, at one point, “the third party.” You can’t keep going back to “what we likely know is true” because we’ve already established that “what is likely true” only matters when it helps your point, and ignored when it hurts it.
Neither a third party candidate nor an independent candidate has ever won the presidential election in this country. That's not a statistical anomaly. We live in a two party system.
I tend to agree here. Except when it comes to who you support for POTUS. If you’re voting for a candidate, literally the thing that most shows your support for a candidate, you can’t say they don’t support the candidate they are literally voting for. Well, you can say it, but we’ve already established that you will say bat-shit crazy things in a desperate attempt to not be wrong.
For the purposes of counting votes, voting third party or independent for a presidential election is the same as not voting.
No, it’s absolutely an ad hominem. Like the most pure form of it. You are questioning their motives instead of what they are literally saying. It’s a textbook case of it. Do you mind if I point some students to this in the future as a perfect example of the ad hominem?
No, I refuted their central point in that statement by establishing the logical contradiction there in. I think the most obvious reason for them to say a meaningless statement like that is to save face. This supposition about their motive for doing such a thing is not the refutation of their central point.
Your central point is that they are supporting Trump. That paragraph of desperate nonsense that kind of loosely resembles logic is your argument for that point. But make no mistake about it, your central point is that they are Trump supporters. Something they explicitly have said is untrue, and the only refutation you have against what they have expressly said is an unsupported accusation that they are lying, which is an ad hominem. You’re argument falls apart because it relies on an unsupported attack on their character for it to be true, and you pointed out early how bad arguments that rely on ad hominems are. Of course, you were wrong at the time that my argument hinged on an ad hominem, I was just insulting someone who kind of deserves it, but you were right that if your argument relies on it, like yours does, that it’s pretty clear how “unconvincing” your argument is.
This is at least in the right ball park. Again, I think they are pro-trump in the sense that they are supporting him in the presidential election. I think it's a reasonable assumption that most of these people voted Biden in 2020 and do not identify as MAGA hat wearing Republicans.
Anyway, I think you have the idea now. Refuting an argument's central point makes for arguments that are far more persuading.
Neither a third party candidate nor an independent candidate has ever won the presidential election in this country.
The republican party didn't even form until 1845. For a while it was the Whigs and the Democrats. We've had at least 5 different parties win the POTUS. I'm not saying this is astonishing, but the claim that a third party has never won is laughably wrong. I even explicitly noted it to you and you weren't smart enough to go look it up on your own.
For the purposes of counting votes, voting third party or independent for a presidential election is the same as not voting.
Incorrect. The votes still count. When it comes to the electoral system, it's effectively the same on the outcome.
However, when it comes to showing who you support, clearly who you actually support (especially if we are talking by giving them your vote) it's not even remotely the same.
And this is the central part of what we are arguing here - something you keep insisting we stick to. .. of course only when it suits your point, going off on ridiculous logical tangents is "persusive" when it helps you make your point. lol - so trying to argue that you don't actually support the person you are voting for, but some other person, is just plain bat-shit crazy reality denialism.
I refuted their central point in that statement by establishing the logical contradiction there in.
No, you refuted nothing. You just called them liars with zero evidence. Your accusation is based solely on the fact that it contradicts the conclusion you've already come to. You don't care about reality, you care about trying to convince people you are right.
But are you just going to drop the fact that you used the ad hominem to refute their claim?
Actually, you know what? You're lying right now and you actually agree with me, because no one would be stupid enough to hold your position. That was easy. lol I like this style of debate.
The republican party didn’t even form until 1845. For a while it was the Whigs and the Democrats. We’ve had at least 5 different parties win the POTUS. I’m not saying this is astonishing, but the claim that a third party has never won is laughably wrong. I even explicitly noted it to you and you weren’t smart enough to go look it up on your own.
Political parties have come and gone. But there were only two main parties at any given time. Characterizing new parties as third parties when they only had one political party as opposition is disingenuous.
Incorrect. The votes still count. When it comes to the electoral system, it’s effectively the same on the outcome.
The votes count, but since they are towards a candidate with no chance of winning, it is the same as not voting for the purpose of counting votes for the main two political parties, Republicans and Democrats.
However, when it comes to showing who you support, clearly who you actually support (especially if we are talking by giving them your vote) it’s not even remotely the same.
In a two party system, support for a third party is measured in the votes it detracts from the candidates from the two main parties. For example, the Green Party took votes from Al Gore in Florida and cost him the 2000 presidential election.
No, you refuted nothing. You just called them liars with zero evidence. Your accusation is based solely on the fact that it contradicts the conclusion you’ve already come to. You don’t care about reality, you care about trying to convince people you are right.
I have already copy and pasted my argument once. Pretending my argument doesn't exist won't help your argument.
But are you just going to drop the fact that you used the ad hominem to refute their claim?
I pointed out that their meaningless statement was false and therefore that they were lying, for the sake of clarity. Your argument has unsuccessfully attempted to misrepresent this clarifying statement as my argument. Not because it was my argument, but because my argument saying they were lying sounds like it was making an ad hominem statement as the basis of my argument when it was not.
Actually, you know what? You’re lying right now and you actually agree with me, because no one would be stupid enough to hold your position. That was easy. lol I like this style of debate.
My argument's position is that they are supporting Trump, by not voting for Biden. Their statement that they are not supporting Trump, is false. Therefore it is a lie. But the fact that they are lying is simply the conclusion I reached by following my arguments logic. It is not how I arrived at that conclusion.
I think you have convinced yourself with your arguments. But the goal of debating someone is to convince others. I know my arguments. I know your argument is misrepresenting them. Your argument is not going to fool me. I can see your arguments misrepresentation clearly and write down exactly what it's doing. Anyone else can do the same. If you want to convince people, argue against what was said and not what you've decided was said. Or keep doing what you're doing, but it won't convince anyone.