Muslim Americans in swing states launch anti-Biden campaign
"We recognize that, in the next four years, our decision may cause us to have an even more difficult time. But we believe that this will give us a chance to recalibrate, and the Democrats will have to consider whether they want our votes or not."
That's gotta be one of the strangest reasonings I've heard in a while.
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Your own link kind of supports my point.
No, there were people that were lead to believe that these states were not swing states when they were in fact swing states. Thus countering your argument's point that a person can be absolutely certain if their state is a swing state.
Trying to make it a dichotomy, because our system tends towards two parties, doesn’t reflect reality.
It does reflect reality. We live in a two party system. An argument that relies on denying this fact is not compelling.
Absolutely relevant because you are claiming that non action that helps trump win is support from trump, even with pretty explicit lack of support for trump. Repeating that “we don’t know for sure” it will help him win, thus it doesn’t count, is a double-edge sword for you because these people pulling their support for Biden might lead to other people to support him, thus it helps him. So we can’t know for certain this will hurt him, thus dismantling your own point too.
We know for sure that low voter turn out helps Republicans and thus Trump. People not voting for Biden reduces the number of votes he will get. There is no measurable effect that demonstrates more people will vote for a candidate if other people say they won't vote for them. This is baseless speculation.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Watch me.
The fact that swing states are not static is irrelevant.
This is the core part of what we are discussing. These voters are planning on not voting, in historic swing states. This will drive those states further to the right in the presidential election.
Yes because they, explicitly, support neither candidate. Yet this is support for one candidate to you, because we live in a two party system
It's math. If Trump gets more votes, because Biden got fewer votes, Trump wins. The people who withhold their votes from Biden will have supported Trump. Saying they don't support Trump while actively helping him win doesn't hold any water.
No one thinks your argument is complicated, it’s just based on ridiculously thoughtless logic that is often, if not always, self contradictory. To accuse me of splitting hairs is the same “making it about me” that you are whining about here.
The reason my argument isn't complicated is because it relies on facts and logic. Your arguments rests on dogging around the word support to conflate supporting Trump in the election with being a MAGA Trump supporter. I have been addressing your argument. These statements about my thoughts are directed at me. edit: typo
We know for sure that low voter turn out helps Republicans and thus Trump
No we don't know that for sure. We know it tends to be that way, but it's not 100% certain. You just need it to be 100% certain because your point totally falls apart if it isn't true. So, as you've proven throughout this debate, your logic only applies when it helps your point, but you recognize the ridiculousness of it when it contradicts your point.
We know as much as we can know anything, when it comes to elections, in regards to low voter turn benefiting Republicans. In 2016 Hillary Clinton lost because of low voter turnout in key swings states. In 2020 Biden won because of high voter turnout in key swing states. These people are planning on using that information to ensure low voter turnout in key, historic swings states in the 2024 election so Biden loses. Your argument ignores the premise of what we are discussing and the facts that are generally accepted to be true and thus is not compelling. My point is that by choosing to make Biden lose in a two party system, where we know low voter turn favors Republicans, they are supporting Trump. No amount of word play, off topic tangents, or ad hominem attacks, that your argument uses, will change that.
Your argument ignores the premise of what we are discussing and the facts that are generally accepted to be true and thus is not compelling.
You have to be joking. This has to be a clever troll. By no stretch of the imagination am I ignoring the premise. My whole argument is using your logic in another case to demonstrate how bunk it is. Every attempt you make to dismiss this also dismisses your own argument. How you can call this "ignoring" it makes no sense. Additionally, I've ignored no facts. You just think your opinion is a fact, which it isn't. You know what is among "the facts that are generally accepted"? That there are known swing states. You're seeing your own faults in me, but I assure you they are yours and yours alone.
You have to be joking. This has to be a clever troll. By no stretch of the imagination am I ignoring the premise. My whole argument is using your logic in another case to demonstrate how bunk it is. Every attempt you make to dismiss this also dismisses your own argument. How you can call this “ignoring” it makes no sense. Additionally, I’ve ignored no facts. You just think your opinion is a fact, which it isn’t. You know what is among “the facts that are generally accepted”? That there are known swing states. You’re seeing your own faults in me, but I assure you they are yours and yours alone.
This post is a perfect example of what your argument includes. Your argument tries to apply my argument's logic to a more general circumstance to demonstrate its incorrectness. I explain in my argument that my logic is correct more generally, I give examples, and explain that the more general cases are irrelevant when discussing the specific case. Then your argument attempts to use word play to make it seem my argument's explanation for the more general case contradicts the more specific case when it does not.
You assert in your argument that my argument's logic, in the general case, contradicts the logic for the specific case we are discussing. Your argument does this in order to make it appear it is building a case, but no where did your argument actually do so. All the while your argument never addresses the actual topic of discussion and simply dismisses the know facts. Your argument boils down to an attempt to pretend as if your argument demonstrated a flaw in my argument's logic without actually having done so. Your argument is an exercise in theater, because your argument lacks anything of substance to refute my central point.
In this new post your argument opens with a series of ad hominem statements. Your argument then contains an explanation for what it is unsuccessfully trying to do. Another ad hominem statement is thrown into the mix. Then your argument misrepresents what my argument has stated in order to mislead.
We can know which states have historically been swing states, and I refer to such states as historic swing states. I make this distinction because a person can not know with absolute certainly if their historic non-swing state could become a swing state in the next election. That is to say more generally, given enough low voter turnout, any state will flip Republican because Republicans benefit from low voter turnout. This is especially true in historic swing states where we have every reason to believe the election will already be close. Thus the people threatening to make Biden lose by utilizing their knowledge of our voting system, to not vote in historic swing states, are supporting Trump.
Your argument has failed to refute my point in the more general case. My argument's logic is consistent across the more specific and general cases, despite your argument's assumption to the contrary. Since there is no contradiction, your argument simply pretends that there is, which isn't particularly convincing. And the general case is not relevant to our discussion, because we are specifically referring to a group of people who are planning not to vote in historic swing states. Your argument has yet to touch on the specific case we are discussing, instead focusing solely on the unrelated general case. edit: typo
simply dismisses the know facts.
Again, this is what you are doing. You are the one trying to deny that we have strong confidence in what the swing states are, dismissing the application of your logic there because "we can't be 100% certain" while at the same time arguing that because more people voting tends to help democrats, that is somehow 100% fact that them not voting is going to help Republicans. You hate your own logic.
I make this distinction because a person can not know with absolute certainly if their historic non-swing state could become a swing state in the next election. That is to say more generally, given enough low voter turnout, any state will flip Republican because Republicans benefit from low voter turnout.
Yes, and again, we "can not know with absolute certainly" that low turn out will help the republicans. It just tends to be that way. Hell, we "can not know with absolute certainly" that these people not voting will even lead to low voter turnout. It might even increase turn out.
Thus the people threatening to make Biden lose by utilizing their knowledge of our voting system, to not vote in historic swing states, are supporting Trump.
And thus the people not moving to historic swing states to cast their vote there, are supporting Trump. It's your logic, my man, not mine. Why the desire to reject your own point is beyond me.
My argument’s logic is consistent across the more specific and general cases
Incorrect. In fact, it's the exact opposite of reality. You knowing something "for certain" is only a requirement when it helps your point, when it contradicts your position, it is ignored. This is not consistent. Inadvertently likely helping Trump win via inaction is support for Trump when it supports your point, but not when it contradicts your position. This is not consistent. You claim that in a two party system, if you don't support one candidate, you are supporting the other. When that means they are supporting Trump when they aren't supporting Biden, it's used. When it means they are supporting Biden because they don't support Trump. . .well that doesn't count. This is not consistent.
I'm the only one consistently applying your logic. You just hate it because your ego is too big to admit you're just plain wrong.
Again, this is what you are doing. You are the one trying to deny that we have strong confidence in what the swing states are, dismissing the application of your logic there because “we can’t be 100% certain” while at the same time arguing that because more people voting tends to help democrats, that is somehow 100% fact that them not voting is going to help Republicans. You hate your own logic.
High voter turnout helps Democrats. We only know which states have been swing states in the past. Which states will be swing states in the future is conjectured with statistics which by definition is not absolute certainty.
Yes, and again, we “can not know with absolute certainly” that low turn out will help the republicans. It just tends to be that way. Hell, we “can not know with absolute certainly” that these people not voting will even lead to low voter turnout. It might even increase turn out.
We know that low voter turn out benefits Republicans because of how our voting system works and the demographics Republicans appeal to. Suggesting the opposite is baseless speculation.
And thus the people not moving to historic swing states to cast their vote there, are supporting Trump. It’s your logic, my man, not mine. Why the desire to reject your own point is beyond me.
People moving states doesn't change the number of votes overall, just the demographics and vote count in each state. This would do nothing to help either candidate overall and isn't relevant to the discussion. The people we are discussing already live in historic swing states.
When that means they are supporting Trump when they aren’t supporting Biden, it’s used. When it means they are supporting Biden because they don’t support Trump. . .well that doesn’t count.
Their statement that they don't support Trump, when they are actively planning to help him win an election, is meaningless. My argument's point is that they are supporting Trump with their actions. Actions speak louder than words.
I’m the only one consistently applying your logic. You just hate it because your ego is too big to admit you’re just plain wrong.
Your argument is what is known as a Straw Man Fallacy.
High voter turnout helps Democrats.
Ignoring the fact that this is absolutely not certain. It just tends to be that way. If something is uncertain, it doesn't count. . .well, of course, only when it suits your purpose, of course. lol
We know that low voter turn out benefits Republicans because of how our voting system works and the demographics Republicans appeal to.
Ignoring the fact that we also know that swing states exist and regularly, very confidently, can declare which are going to be close. Suggesting the opposite is baseless speculation.
People moving states doesn’t change the number of votes overall, just the demographics and vote count in each state.
True. But our system is electoral based, and so switching from a "certain" state to a "swing" state makes your vote more meaningful. So by not moving to a swing state to support Biden, you are actually supporting Trump.
The people we are discussing already live in historic swing states.
I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about all the people who live in non-swing states who stay there. By your logic, their inaction to support Biden is actually support for Trump. lol. How is this not clear by now? You're so busy chasing your own tail trying to be right that you've got yourself completely turned around.
Their statement that they don’t support Trump, when they are actively planning to help him win an election, is meaningless.
No, they are not actively doing this. They are running an anti-Biden campaign while also being anti-Trump. They don't support either. That's the point. They are likely just going to sit the vote out because they don't support either candidate. You can paint this as stupid and something that is likely to hurt them, and I would absolutely agree, but their point is that they are playing a long game and by pulling support from Biden, because he is doing stuff they think is bad for Muslims, they will get more support from Democrats in the future. They are just okay with Biden losing because they think even that would be better in the long wrong.
Your argument is what is known as a Straw Man Fallacy.
Incorrect, it's not the straw-man fallacy because I'm not saying you are making this argument, I'm applying your logic to another situation that you are sure to disagree with, to demonstrate how ridiculous your logic is. It's called reductio ad absurdum and it's a well established method of debating. If we want to pull out the debate books, what you are doing is called false dilemma. It's like you realize the faults of your own argument and you are simply alerting me to them. I appreciate it.
I’m not talking about them.
Then your argument is not addressing my central point and is a Straw Man Fallacy. Once your arguments address my central point instead of other positions, they will improve considerably.
I’m applying your logic to another situation that you are sure to disagree with
Unfortunately for your argument, I do agree with my argument's logic in the other circumstances so that didn't work either.
what you are doing is called false dilemma.
Our two party system is a zero-sum game. One candidate must win and the other must lose. Thus it is impossible for anyone to be neutral in such a system. By not voting for Biden in historic swing states, these people are helping Trump to win. They know this to be true, which is why they are organizing a movement around this idea. They think punishing the Democratic party in this way will benefit them in the long run because it will force Democrats to be more progressive. This reasoning is flawed, because if elected, Trump will dismantle our democracy and there will not be future elections.
Then your argument is not addressing my central point and is a Straw Man Fallacy.
Ignoring the context in which that statement was made to misrepresent it, attacking that, and then accusing me of straw-manning. Hilarious.
Unfortunately for your argument, I do agree with my argument’s logic in the other circumstances so that didn’t work either.
lol. It's literally my argument that you only accept your logic when it supports your point. You just unintentionally admitted I am right.
Our two party system is a zero-sum game.
Incorrect. This is the false dichotomy. You need it to be true or your whole point falls apart, but as we see here there are at least 3 options: support Trump, Support Biden, support neither.
They think punishing the Democratic party in this way will benefit them in the long run because it will force Democrats to be more progressive. This reasoning is flawed, because if elected, Trump will dismantle our democracy and there will not be future elections.
You're confusing "this is a bad idea that is going to hurt you" with "supporting Trump." These are not the same things. I agree that they are doing a dumb thing, but they also are not "supporting Trump."
I need to know, are you actually this dumb or are you just trolling? Your writing makes it sound like you aren't a complete idiot, but your the content of your arguments reveal a complete lack of critical thought.
Ignoring the context in which that statement was made to misrepresent it, attacking that, and then accusing me of straw-manning. Hilarious.
The context was another straw man.
lol. It’s literally my argument that you only accept your logic when it supports your point. You just unintentionally admitted I am right.
Perhaps reread my sentence. I fully believe my argument's logic is consistent across all circumstances you have raised in your argument. I believe this because that is the case.
support neither.
Not voting for either candidate benefits the Republicans. The people we are discussing are basing their movement around this idea.
You’re confusing “this is a bad idea that is going to hurt you” with “supporting Trump.”
These concepts are not mutually exclusive. They have been doing both of those things.
I need to know, are you actually this dumb or are you just trolling? Your writing makes it sound like you aren’t a complete idiot, but your the content of your arguments reveal a complete lack of critical thought.
I am not relevant to the topic of discussion. But since you asked, I think my commitment to addressing arguments is an indication of my desire to have good faith discussions. That being said the internet is an imperfect mechanism for conveying intentions. So believe what you want about me.