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  • I don't think anybody here is saying Hamas is a good guy. I haven't seen a single comment in this thread defending Hamas.

    A lot of people however, are rationally, and correctly, pointing out that organizations like Hamas are a symptom of an oppressed people. Like an apartheid state, or slave state, we can look at history for examples of people striking out over and over again. It's not a justification, it is however an observation based on history. Slave rebellions are bloody affairs, and the innocent are killed, but the solution to slave rebellions is not harder slavery.

    The two-state solution is no longer viable. It is impossible to break apart Palestine from Israel. Especially looking at how fractured the West Bank is, all of the Israeli exclaves, and all of the Palestinian reservations or intermixed - one might say even deliberately to prevent a two-state solution from being viable.

    I can't speak for the next 10 to 20 years, but the long-term viable solution in 30 years is going to be a single country encompassing both current Israel and current Palestine, in a secular, non-ethnocentric, non-religious democratic organization. Where people are equal regardless of their ethnicity, religion, or language.

    And it's going to be a very bloody time to get to that stage, but it's the only stable steady state.

    • A lot of people however, are rationally, and correctly, pointing out that organizations like Hamas are a symptom of an oppressed people. Like an apartheid state, or slave state, we can look at history for examples of people striking out over and over again.

      You can see it that way, but you also have to take Hamas's stated goal into consideration. Their stated goal is not to liberate their people, it's to be the new oppressor, and a far worse one than that.

      Let's put it another way. There are around two million Arab Israelis. They're in the Israeli parliament, they serve in its courts, in the military, etc. Would they be liberated if Hamas achieved its goal? They would probably be viewed as collaborators and executed.

      This myth that Hamas are just freedom fighters, like Nelson Mandela or Gandhi, really needs to be dispelled. It has no basis in reality.

      There's this weird urge in the minds of people to try to find a hero story. There's no hero story. And if groups like Hamas weren't wreaking havoc in the area for the past 50+ years, realistically, a Palestinian state would probably exist.

      I can’t speak for the next 10 to 20 years, but the long-term viable solution in 30 years is going to be a single country encompassing both current Israel and current Palestine, in a secular, non-ethnocentric, non-religious democratic organization. Where people are equal regardless of their ethnicity, religion, or language.

      Except no one in the region wants that. Certainly not Hamas.

      • you keep falling into this Pro Israeli or Pro Hamas dichotomy, those arnt the only options. We can be anti-apartheid and anti-hamas at the same time, but recognize the systemic nature of the violence that arises because of the oppression.

        The Israeli Arabs are a good example of what a integrated Palestine Israel might look like to start with, just expand that to the entire population. Of course there are some outstanding issues to hammer out even with our model Israeli Arab integration wikipedia which ultimately means the government needs to change from being a ethnostate government to a national citizenship based government secular of religion. But I'm not going to let perfection get in the way of good enough, if we could integrate everyone today even with the racism issues, thats a huge win.

        • you keep falling into this Pro Israeli or Pro Hamas dichotomy, those arnt the only options. We can be anti-apartheid and anti-hamas at the same time, but recognize the systemic nature of the violence that arises because of the oppression.

          But see, you're falling into the exact dichotomy you said you wanted to avoid. It's far too simplistic to just frame it as "oppressor" and "oppressed." By labeling one group as the oppressed and another group as the oppressor, you're taking a side.

          It's easy to fall into that narrative, because Israel has most of the power. Life in Israel is far better than life in Gaza. In response to 10/7, Israel pushed Gaza into a humanitarian crisis by cutting off power, medicine, food, and even drinking water into Gaza (though Biden managed to get them to turn the water back on).

          So it's easy to look at them and say, "oh, one group is oppressed and the other is an oppressor." But it's also naive. Hamas's stated goal is genocide. It's not really an "oppressor and oppressed" situation when the allegedly oppressed are explicitly genocidal.

          The Israeli Arabs are a good example of what a integrated Palestine Israel might look like to start with, just expand that to the entire population. Of course there are some outstanding issues to hammer out even with our model Israeli Arab integration wikipedia which ultimately means the government needs to change from being a ethnostate government to a national citizenship based government secular of religion. But I’m not going to let perfection get in the way of good enough, if we could integrate everyone today even with the racism issues, thats a huge win.

          But then you're essentially playing the role of a colonial power, telling the locals how it's going to be. That's what George W. Bush tried to do in Iraq and Afghanistan. It didn't work.

          If you did a poll people of any ethnic and religious group between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and you asked them, "would you like to live in a secular state with both Israelis and Palestinian Arabs sharing the same land," do you think you'd get a majority? I bet you'd get fewer than 20%.

          Probably more Israelis would be open and willing to agree to that than Palestinian Arabs, but I doubt you'd see a majority from either camp. And a "one secular state" solution isn't something any world leader is really talking about. It wasn't part of the Oslo or Camp David accords, isn't what anyone is proposing, etc.

          • You keep bringing up Hamas, I'm not defending Hamas.

            Israel is engaged in systemic Apartheid against ethnic arabs in their territory.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/07/19/israeli-apartheid-threshold-crossed https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702

            The Apartheid is the root cause of the violence, which doesn't excuse the violence, but its clearly the main catalyst.

            Israel is acting as the Colonial power in this scenario.

            Two State solutions are off the table given the Israel settlements integrated all throughout the westbank as of today. That only leaves one state solutions. Either Israel kills every single Arab in the country, or they have to learn to live with them in peace which means ending Apartheid.

            • I'm bringing up Hamas because they're the belligerent. The same reason I'm bringing up Israel. Who should we be talking about? Fatah? The PLO? They aren't in power.

              The apartheid narrative is also a false one. Apartheid was under a racial test. It was a system of South Africa's white minority's choosing. That isn't the case in Palestine. There are millions of Arab Israelis. There were no "Black Whites" in South Africa's apartheid.

              From 1948 to 1967, Palestine existed for 19 years as a presumed state. To get UN membership, all they had to do was form a government. Not a single Israeli soldier stepped foot into Palestine during those years. Then, the Egypt, Jordan, United Arab Republic (which included the Gaza Strip), Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Kuwait all attacked Israel unprovoked. Since then, Israel is at various levels occupied territories used to launch that war.

              At various times, it's eased its occupation, most notably after Oslo and the 2000 Camp David conference. Palestine has held, at various points, elections with Israeli help. Ehud Barak worked earnestly on a Palestinian State. So did the international community.

              Then in 2006, Gazans elected Hamas in a relatively democratic election. No election has been held since. Israel has not occupied Gaza since either, though it has controlled its radio waves, airspace, and ports with good reason.

              Life in Gaza is intolerable and inhumane. The West Bank is also bad, though obviously not as dire (Israel does directly occupy the West Bank). It's a complex and sad story, with plenty of Palestinian suffering, but apartheid it is not.

              • I'm not defending Hamas, so bringing them up again and again when talking to me is a not relevant.

                We clearly disagree on the system of Apartheid. The UN, Wikipedia, and HRW agree its Apartheid.

                You have two ethnicities living in the same places, with vastly different rules, laws, rights, and freedoms. Whatever label you want to give that, its not a recipe for peace.

                Quite frankly, the past doesn't matter, it can inform our decision for the future, but we are here today with the situation today. All that matters is what we do now to make a better tomorrow. Blaming people for decisions of their parents and grandparents is not going to bring peace.

                • but apartheid it is not.

                  The UN, Wikipedia, and HRW agree its Apartheid.

                  Could you respond to this point, specifically, in a non-verbose way?

                • You have two ethnicities living in the same places, with vastly different rules, laws, rights, and freedoms. Whatever label you want to give that, its not a recipe for peace.

                  Well, that's only half true. You have plenty of Arab Israelis who are living life exactly like Jewish Israelis.

                  Anyway: I agree that the situation for Palestinian Arabs is completely intolerable and needs to change. But the word just doesn't fit, mostly because the situation in Israel is not of Israel's choosing. The situation in South Africa was very much of the white minority's choosing.

                  Besides, if you're going to make that comparison, you should probably apply it all around. Consider Lebanon:

                  Most Palestinians in Lebanon do not have Lebanese citizenship and therefore do not have Lebanese identity cards, which would entitle them to government services, such as health and education. They are also legally barred from owning property or entering a list of desirable occupations. Employment requires a government-issued work permit, and, according to the New York Times in 2011, although "Lebanon hands out and renews hundreds of thousands of work permits every year to people from Africa, Asia and other Arab countries... until now, only a handful have been given" to Palestinians.

                  I believe Human Rights Watch has also condemned Lebanon's treatment of Palestinians a number of times, FWIW.

                  EDIT: BTW, you could probably say that mentioning Lebanon is whataboutism. You'd be right. I'm narrowly seeking to observe that the term "apartheid" seems unevenly applied.

                  • Lebanon is also a bad situation, there are many non-equitable situations around the world right now.

                    We don't have to agree on Apartheid as a term, as long as we agree on the effects.

                    I'm happy the Arab Israelis have a reasonable life, I see that as the only path forward for the rest of the Palestinians living in Israel territory.

                    Israel did create the situation, Once it conquered the territories of Gaza and the West bank it now occupied a population of people. It could have integrated them into Israel as they have with the Israeli Arabs, or given the territory back to Egypt / Jordan after the war. But regardless, they now were the colonizers of a client population.

                    However, I stick with my earlier stance, it doesn't matter how we got here today, we are here now, and the only thing we can control is how we move forward. Blaming people for the sins, or omissions, of their ancestors isn't going to bring peace.

                    • Israel did create the situation, Once it conquered the territories of Gaza and the West bank it now occupied a population of people. It could have integrated them into Israel as they have with the Israeli Arabs, or given the territory back to Egypt / Jordan after the war. But regardless, they now were the colonizers of a client population.

                      Palestinians are generally not interested in being annexed into Israel. In fact, that's probably what they oppose the most. Being consumed and assimilated is what the more religious and more conservative Muslims don't want. That would also be intolerable to Israelis. The very people who voted for Hamas, who carried out 10/7, who suicide-bomb cafes, should be granted citizenship? That's unrealistic. It would be like if the United States responded to 9/11 by making Afghanistan a state.

                      And giving back the land conquered during the Six Day War? That was more or less proposed in 2000, though most of it was actually going to a new Palestinian state. In Clinton's summit, Barak offered demolition of settlements, a right of return for Palestinians, half of Jerusalem and shared custody of the Temple Mount, and a return to the 1967 borders. Yasser Arafat, in my estimation fearing for his life if he made peace with Israel, rejected that.

                      In 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza anyway, leaving a vacuum of power. In that vacuum, Hamas won an election a year later. This month, more or less as a direct result of giving Gazans more self-rule, a pogrom erupted from Gaza and killed over a thousand civilians. Surely you wouldn't say that's of Israel's design. And what would you have their response be? I can't imagine any country in the world that wouldn't respond militarily.

                      The living conditions of Palestinians are awful, terrible, inhumane. Especially in Gaza. But I don't see how or when Israel sat down and said "yes, let's create this." It's a consequence of a long series of events, and Israel is involved, but they didn't just sit down one day and design a two-tier society.

186 comments