Europeans over 65 will outnumber those under 15 next year
The World Health Organisation said it will bring 'new social, economic and health challenges' in order to make the best of an ageing population
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And everyone is afraid of immigration. It's bizarre.
and investing in the young
Fuck you I got mine
We are afraid of immigration because there is so few housing that bringing people will just add to the pressure and make rents even more ridiculously expensive . Also, in my country (Portugal), these workers accept working for less and live in miserable conditions (overcrowded homes, tents outside of Lisbon, etc), making it worse for everyone else, causing an exodus of qualified people and a flood of “tourism workers” because salaries just not increase when there are people accepting to work for less.
Meanwhile our public services are collapsing left and right because qualified people just leave and there are so many new people trying to access public healthcare etc.
This is not the black and white immigration is good/bad you are making it out to be .
I'm from Portugal also and it's not immigration that is driving high rent prices. That's a disingenuous position. Golden visas and Airbnb have contributed MUCH more to this as well as the liberalization of rents coupled with low new housing projects.
The workers that accept low salaries are mostly seasonal workers and they don't compete with locals for decent housing and if you were honest you would mention that most of the time you have plenty of them living in the same space. Again, not occupying a lot of the housing destined for locals. I don't see locals eager to go live in Odemira in the houses occupied by seasonal workers or in Martim Moniz in degraded housing.
Same here and totally agree with you.
I've actually worked in Finance and spent 20 years abroad before coming back to Portugal and it was obvious already when I arrived 4 years ago, that government measures were rigging the housing market to be ever higher: Golden Visa in exchange for €500k "realestate investment", tax discounts for retirees from the rest of Europe to come live in Portugal, Digital Nomad visas, such a bullshit regulatory regime for AirBnB businesses that (eventually, after 10 years) the highest court finally ruled that unlike what the "regulation" said, you can't just convert appartments to AirBnB businesses as you feel like and have to follow the same rules as ALL OTHER BUSINESSES, and, last but not least, a complete total refusal to regulate speculative investment in Portuguese realestate by foreign investors (something as simple as a minimum 6-month residence in Portugal requirement similar to many other countries would've made a huge difference and still be compatible wth EU rules as it doesn't discriminate between portuguese and other EU citizens).
And this was just their Demand side manipulation.
On the Supply side, housing construction was down to 1/3 of what it was in the 80s and there is pretty much no public housing construction in the country of Europe with the lowest percentage of public housing.
Meanwhile we get loud "we've created 100 student accomodation rooms in this old government building we didn't use" announcements as if they're so amazing when the local unis take in 50 thousand students per year for what are typically 3 year courses so 100 new rooms once every 10 years or so is doesn't even touch the problem of student accomodation (itself a subset of the wider housing problem).
(Note that most top level politicians from the 2 parties that alternate in Government have declared income as "real-estate investor").
Portugal is were it is in housing because the Portuguese are mainly dumb and greedy votting for greedy, incompetent snake-oil salesmen.
That said, the "immigration problem" in Portugal has to do with how the country mainly takes in people with far less average levels of Education than the locals, and hence not capable of working in the kind of higher value added jobs as the locals (especially the young). This is why almost everybody working as Uber and food delivery drivers are from Brasil or the Indian Subcontinent - unlike most other countries in Europe, Portugal has very little in the way of selectivity in who can come (especially from Brasil, whose citizens are the largest immigrant community in Portugal) plus it can't really attract the more well educated as richer countries can, so you mainly get a whole different kind of brasilians in Portugal than you get in, for example, Britain were I also lived.
You can't really get your Economy to climb up the value added ladder (and hence pay higher salaries) if you're pushing the locals to have fewer children or, even worse, to leave the country as soon as they finish their degrees, by pumping up house prices to increase your personal rewards from the side-business that you have as "realestate investor" alongside your politician day-job, whilst "making up for it" by importing people with a way lower level of education than those children would end up having and those degree-holding young adults leaving because houses are too expensive already have.
Also from Portugal and did you really just say that the problem with immigration is that they get exploited and then everyone ELSE suffers?
I mean i think you see what’s wrong with that.
Also without immigrants Portugal would be completely fucked because all the young people are leaving the country for better jobs in Europe. Someone needs to pick up the slack otherwise it’s just old people and a couple of children.
Also Portugal has a ton of houses. We are above average in houses per capita iirc. We have a problem with salaries and an over dependence on tourism.
He's just someone trying to provide a false narrative to justify his racism.
Portugal has massive house price inflation problems in the places were the jobs are: all it takes is to look at the house price to incomes ratio in Portugal now and compare it with the historical average (last I checked it was 5x its historical average).
Sure, there are actually empty villages in the deep inland countryside were the only work is "subsistence farming" or "forrestry", for the simple reason that even being a cashier at a supermarket pays better so nobody is going to move there to do that work.
Looking at housing as "all houses everywhere have the same utility value" to be able to come up with that "there is no housing problem in Portugal" bollocks is beyond ridiculous.
That said, blaming immigrants is pure, unadulterated far-right nutter fantasism: the idea that the people with the least power in the country (who can't even vote) are to blame for this is logic-defying, to say the least.
Imagine claiming your issue isn't with immigrants then immediately listing all the reasons immigrants are to blame for the actions of the capitalists that exploit them, and you, and the government that allows it.. 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
This is not the black and white immigration is good/bad you are making it out to be .
no, it's just you who is wilfully ignorant. And afraid. Because of your wilful ignorance.
Imagine not addressing any of the points, and instead just accusing someone of being wilfully ignorant.
How ignorant
Just to be clear, you’re arguing that if capitalism didn’t exist in Europe, we would be building twice as many buildings per year? This is the dumbest take I’ve read today, and I accidentally landed on r/Politics this morning.
Dunno about twice as much but the problem isn’t housing (Portugal has a shit ton of houses). The problem is affordable housing and yes capitalism is very much to blame here.
Not in a “free market = bad” that I’m very much for in many situations but simply because it’s not profitable to build affordable housing. A vast percentage of the housing built in Portugal is for upper middle class, so everyone below that (which in Portugal is a shit ton of people) you are fucked. And even if you lived in a decent house prices have skyrocketed so much that you get kicked out if they can do that.
Capitalism by design is very much against public housing and you don’t even need to imagine how the situation would be if you had that. You can just look at Vienna and see how they are doing in that regard (spoiler: pretty fucking well compared to the rest of Europe/world).
I'm not against immigration but it's no solution. You're in Europe. You're trying to replace a workforce that has free education, in a place with high quality education infrastructure, therefore most of them have bachelors and probably at least one or more masters degrees, with essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
I've literally had migrant refugees from Lebanon, Somalia, Eritrea, Morocco and such as flatmates in Brussels. Some of them are my close friends. They are not remotely prepared to take over 90% of European jobs. You either need social skills, labor skills, language skills or technical skills which they simply do not have. If i was in their shoes, it would take me decades to catch up to how Europeans work.
The migrants come here for what ? Uber eats ? How are they supposed to support themselves ? With government integration money we don't have available ? But say we figure it out and they live and then they will have kids one day. Those kids will behave exactly like the local population. They will go to University, they will be highly qualified, they will be socially adapted to the place, culture and language and, they will also not have kids, just like the locals. So which problem did these migrants solve then ?
So the issue here isn't that we lack people in Europe. It's that our economic doctrine is deficient. We need to change the doctrine, not the people. Immigration will not solve this problem, it will perpetuate it. Young people not having kids is an economic issue that will still happen whether you have a European young person there or a Iraqi young person there. You can't simply transplant a young couple from a country with very high birth rates in a totally different part of the world, subjected to an entirely different set of circumstances and expect them to be the same in Europe. That's not how this works.
with essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
You're talking shit. Immigrants make up 20% of the NHS in the UK, and loads also work in the care sector, those are vital jobs and you have to be literate. Most immigrants I've met speak better English than the local toe rags.
Those kids will behave exactly like the local population. They will go to University, they will be highly qualified, they will be socially adapted to the place, culture and language and, they will also not have kids, just like the local. So which problem did these migrants solve then ?
The lack of young workers?
You are deliberately talking over them. They’re clearly not claiming that all migrants are illiterate or uneducated or ill-prepared for work in Europe. They’re arguing that many are, and those migrants exacerbate our problems. They certainly don’t solve them.
Define many. What percentage are illiterate?
It depends on the nation. The UN collects data. Afghanistan is 62.7% illiterate, for example. Further, Almost all refugees to Denmark have zero Danish language reading and writing skills. They must learn all of these. Slightly more (but shockingly few) have any English reading and writing skills.
Surely it isn't surprising to you that refugees have limited European language skills?
Refugees != immigrants
Refugees are indeed immigrants.
immigrant: a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence
refugee /ˌrɛfjʊˈdʒiː/ noun
undefined
a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.
Emigrating is a choice. Fleeing because you helped translate is not.
Aren't western countries have strict education requirements before they would even consider permanent residency applications? Or are you talking about refugees, which imo shouldn't be counted as a way to replenish aging workforce because the governments let them in for humanitarian reason?
The large volume of applications of economic refugees made it so since 2015 the the education requirements are essentially waived. There are no wars in Morocco, for instance, but i personally know of refugees that hid their nationality to enter as war refugees. This is very common.
most of them have bachelors
Only 30% of people in Europe have bachelors degrees, about the same as the u.s. Thats higher than in developing countries, say India at 8%, but a majority of people in both countries don't have degrees.
It's a common misconception by those with tertiary education in the first world that everyone else has tertiary education because they only talk to people in their social class with tertiary education.
You're showing me an average with the entire population of Turkey and the Balcans. Look better at your data, please. Now consider where the majority of migrants are going and are being expected. It is not a genuine source of comparison. It's closer to 40%. Besides, like i also mentioned, it's not just higher education.
The original post was about Europe, that's the European average. Even the E.U. average is 30% and that doesn't include turkey and some of the Balkans. Also the point still stands even for the best example of Luxembourg at 46%, it's still less than half. Most people in Europe do not have a bachelors.
So what I hear you're saying is that education is the solution.
We could educate immigrants, which will take some time. We could also educate the Europeans so they don't take the jobs that requires shorter educations. Either way we will need the immigrants to solve the current demand.
The problem is that the same thing was tried in the 1970s and it didn't turn out well when the demand for low skill workers decreased again. We already know that the demand will drop again in 20-30 years, so we should already now focus on educating the immigrants, so they can function in society after the low skill jobs are gone.
Another thing is that it's not like we can stop immigration. The climate changes will result in massive immigration whether we "allow" it or not. They're not going to sit and die outside imaginary lines on the ground.
IMO, the only realistic option is to accept and start educating immigrants.
I'm not saying they can't be or shouldn't beintegrated. What I'm saying is that their existence will not affect the demographic crisis in any meaningful way. They won't have kids, just as the locals. I've seen it happen. If we're saving people, we're saving people, but let's not pretend it's because of the population crisis, because that is irrelevant to the problem
Have you noticed what governments all over Europe have done to Adult Education in the last couple of decades???!
Indeed, the genuine, strategically well thought, policy on immigration for all involved would be to bring people over, educate them and integrate them.
The thing is, the immigration policies we have are mainly to bring over people to exploit them to the max without investing in them at all - they're about growing the local underclass to lower the employment costs of food delivery apps, restauration, garbage collection and similar, not about shared prosperity for both the locals and those that were invited in and should have been treated as guests rather than thrown (along with their children: see the baundeliers in France) into a life of poverty because they're starting far below the locals in the opportunities ladder due to their lower formal education level and difficulties with local language.
Meanwhile you have muppets on the make-believe-Leftwing-Rightwing political theatre both approaching the whole subject of immigration in a highly reductionist way as some kind of Identity War, all the while the people with most of the money rub their hands in glee whilst they cash in on the misery of locals and guests alike.
Yes I know and it's about to repeat. And yes it's driven by the political puppets of the industry.
You can tell because it's the same liberal centre parties who used to flirt with the right wing to gain votes, who are now suddenly calling for guest workers, without any support from their own voters. They don't care what happens to these people in the future. They just want to flood the employment market with cheap labour because their friends wants that.
More immigration is inevitable, but it shouldn't be like this.
Putting the side the whole moral aspect of it, the only way to make importing less well educated people function in most European countries would be a huge investment in Adult Dducation, and we're in the late-neoliberal political period were governments (some more, some less) have been busy cutting taxes and hence public expenses, and typically Adult Education is one of the first to have been cut.
The very people who have set up open door immigration policies claiming that we need them because of the aging of the population refuse to invest in those who they made our guests to become fully productive and integrated citizens and instead are happy to for them to live in or near poverty working low-value and highly insecure jobs such as food delivery driver for some exploitative "Startup" that doesn't even pay taxes.
This shit isn't at all being done for the reasons we are told it's being done.
essentially illiterate (and i mean this with all due respect) people from a completely different culture who are not prepared to do anything remotely useful for at least 10 years, probably more.
saying with all due respect doesn't make your bullshit racist essay any less racist, racist.
How is this racist? If I move to, say, Azerbaijan, I'm just as lost as them. I know fuck all about the language, can't even read the alphabet they have and don't know shit about the culture. And we share skincolours.
I have a PhD, but I'm basically useless in Azerbaijan for anything but menial labour, explained slowly with lots of gestures.
Culture isn't nearly that important, and learning the language, or just speaking English, is a minor obstacle all things considered. If you move somewhere, you will get a language teacher.
What the hell are you talking about? Culture is hugely important, if you move somewhere that fundamentally has issue with you... might might be outright killed.
Countries don't all necessarily speak English. I'm visiting Mexico right now... it's actually quite hard at times to find English speakers. The police I've interacted with here... no English. Border crossing... very limited English. Acting like English is something special is very short sighted.
Assuming that all immigrants or refugees will just have access to language tutoring is absurd. That's typically an expensive cost. One that many people simply cannot afford.
Well, then maybe it's different In the Americas, I don't know, but you mentioned an European country.
I live in Europe, been around various places in Europe. I'm an immigrant myself. It's not nearly as bad as you might think.
And yes, obviously racism and xenophobia is a problem, but integrating into the culture won't fix that.
Careful now. Calling racists racist is impolite and very frowned upon.
If you won’t even acknowledge that some people need help to learn to read, does that mean you want to eliminate literacy support for refugees? Isn’t that far more racist than just accepting reality? I believe this is what we call horseshoe politics at work. The tendency for the loudest “anti-racists” in the room to be the absolute worst racists.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Not when you consider that so many are rather old and afraid of change (something which correlates with age).
Many comments below (->above?) about housing. But it seems to me, the problem in much of Europe is that many old people hang on to large half-empty family houses, so over 65s are occupying a lot more space than under 15s (although the latter have more energy, need space to play ...). It's a pity they blame immigrants for this.
For me it's more a cherry on a cake. We already have a housing problem for a couple years. Most young starters can't afford to purchase/rent a house, so that look for cheaper options. Those cheaper options are given away to immigrants because of emergency housing laws. This in turn causes less houses for the population that can't afford new houses. It's not just a problem of immigration (not even that much) it's a problem that existing empty houses go way over the affordable price and on top of that the immigrants get the houses for free.
So yeah focus all that and I can see why people blame immigration, but it's absolutely not the only cause. I would prefer it more if the government limits the prices of housing, but this causes investment in housing to drop as well. It's a dirty vicious greedy circle that points to immigrants as the easy target.
I should also add that some immigrants don't accept other temporary options and want a bigger house for free, whilst the population pays 150-200%. That also causes friction.
Just wait until central/north africa becomes unlivable… at least it will probably solve our age distribution issue…
The demographics of north Africa are quite different from central Africa - in the north it's neither so young nor so large (except Egypt). On the other hand, as the Sahara (Hadley cell) moves north, if we're lucky there just might be a bit more rain along its southern fringe, whilst the outlook for the Mediterranean side is bleak.
If you look into the issues caused by (mass) immigration or related to that then it makes much more sense imo.