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  • What you appear to be utterly oblivious to is the change over time that's happening in China. The standard of living is rapidly improving for the regular people living in China with each and every decade. It's not a static situation of people making 2 dollars a day as you try to paint it.

    Meanwhile, China has to exist within the global capitalist system created by the west after WW2. That means having to participate within the global economy and engage with capitalism. The thing anarchists invariably aren't able to wrap their heads around is the fact that transition from capitalism to communism is a process, and that countries led by communists still have to exist within the larger capitalist world.

    Pointing at the fact that there are 500 billionaires in China as some sort of a gotcha while ignoring the larger trends really highlights how superficial your understanding of the subject you're attempting to debate really is.

    • Meanwhile, China has to exist within the global capitalist system created by the west after WW2. That means having to participate within the global economy and engage with capitalism.

      So China is speedrunning late-state Capitalism with private mega-corps like Tencent and exploiting its own cheap labor by giving them out to western capitalists so they can enrich their own billionaires. Of course, your excuse, as I already said it would be much earlier in the thread, "it's the West's fault".

      Isn't that peak chauvinism of you, removing all agency from the communist people because "the West is forcing them to"?

      Pointing at the fact that there are 500 billionaires in China as some sort of a gotcha

      What is the point of communism?

      • So China is speedrunning late-state Capitalism with private mega-corps like Tencent and exploiting its own cheap labor by giving them out to western capitalists so they can enrich their own billionaires. Of course, your excuse, as I already said it would be much earlier in the thread, “it’s the West’s fault”.

        If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:

        If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.

        The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.

        It's pretty dishonest to claim ChInA Is DoInG StAtE CaPiTALiSM when it's pretty clear that China is basically the only place in the world where standard of living is going up significantly. If China was doing what you claim it's doing then we'd see the same results as we see under actual capitalism. It'd look like India today.

        What is the point of communism?

        Point of communism is to have an equal society, but the question is how you get there from where we are now. Apparently anarchists believe that magic happens as opposed to this being a process the way things work in the real world.

        • It’s pretty dishonest to claim ChInA Is DoInG StAtE CaPiTALiSM when it’s pretty clear that China is basically the only place in the world where standard of living is going up significantly. If China was doing what you claim it’s doing then we’d see the same results as we see under actual capitalism. It’d look like India today.

          Circular reasoning: communism increases standard of living, China's standard of living is going up, therefore China is communist, therefore communism increases standard of living. This is a logical fallacy.

          China's economic boom correlates to its involvement in the capitalist world economy. It's very easy to argue that the more China does capitalism, the more wealthier it gets, the better off the Chinese citizens.

          India is not doing quite as well as China, but it's still seem a very dramatic decrease in poverty, especially if you go by the "$1.90/day" mark, which is not enough imho, but it's the one you choose to go by: https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/september-2023-global-poverty-update-world-bank-new-data-poverty-during-pandemic-asia

          To say "China is basically the only place in the world where standard of living is going up significantly", you're "basically" just straight-up wrong.

          Point of communism is to have an equal society, but the question is how you get there from where we are now. Apparently anarchists believe that magic happens as opposed to this being a process the way things work in the real world.

          So the path to communism is paved with mega-corps and billionaires? What do you expect them to do, voluntarily give up all their wealth and possessions when it's time for the communism to begin?

          • Circular reasoning: communism increases standard of living, China’s standard of living is going up, therefore China is communist, therefore communism increases standard of living. This is a logical fallacy.

            You don't understand what circular reasoning is. What I actually said is that the standard of living is going up in China while it's not going up in capitalist countries. If China was capitalist then you'd expect the same thing to happen as it does everywhere else where there is capitalism. China would look something like India right now.

            China’s economic boom correlates to its involvement in the capitalist world economy. It’s very easy to argue that the more China does capitalism, the more wealthier it gets, the better off the Chinese citizens.

            Oh weird, why aren't we seeing this economic boom in eastern Europe, Russia, India, and other parts of former USSR that transitioned to capitalism. According to your "logic" we should see exact same standard of living improvements there too.

            India is not doing quite as well as China, but it’s still seem a very dramatic decrease in poverty, especially if you go by the “$1.90/day” mark, which is not enough imho, but it’s the one you choose to go by

            Not even remotely comparable to poverty reduction in China.

            So the path to communism is paved with mega-corps and billionaires? What do you expect them to do, voluntarily give up all their wealth and possessions when it’s time for the communism to begin?

            Once you show me somebody doing it better than China then we'll talk. And nobody is expecting them to voluntarily give up wealth, taking the wealth away and nationalizing things is the job of the government. Of course, you refuse to accept the fact that working class holds power in China and that's what your fallacious view of China is premised on.

            • What I actually said is that the standard of living is going up in China while it’s not going up in capitalist countries. If China was capitalist then you’d expect the same thing to happen as it does everywhere else where there is capitalism. China would look something like India right now.

              https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country

              https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

              Numbeo is ranking India at #56, China at #65 for quality of life index.

              China is notable for having a recent rapid increase. It's easier to have a big delta number, when your starting number is so low.

              Once you show me somebody doing it better than China then we’ll talk.

              According to Numbeo there are still 64 counties doing better on the quality of life index than China.

              And nobody is expecting them to voluntarily give up wealth, taking the wealth away and nationalizing things is the job of the government. Of course, you refuse to accept the fact that working class holds power in China and that’s what your fallacious view of China is premised on.

              Working class holds what power? Tencent and Alibaba aren't owned by its workers. Why would the government ever decide to give up its joint wealth and power with the billionaire class? What could the workers possibly do to hold them accountable?

              • These numbeo rankings of yours are just another great example of how western propagandists like to play with numbers. It's pretty funny how you're very vary of numbers coming out of China because you don't trust them, but quickly lap up whatever numbers fit with your prejudices.

                Here's the reality of poverty in India https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/governance/just-how-poor-is-india-10-per-cent-says-the-world-bank-85225

                China is notable for having a recent rapid increase. It’s easier to have a big delta number, when your starting number is so low.

                Why is India not having the same kind of rapid increase, why is it getting worse there, why did capitalism create the same problems in post Soviet countries? I love how you keep dodging these questions here.

                Working class holds what power? Tencent and Alibaba aren’t owned by its workers. Why would the government ever decide to give up its joint wealth and power with the billionaire class? What could the workers possibly do to hold them accountable?

                This illustrates grade school understanding of what the working class holding power means. What that means is that the government is consists of predominantly working class, which it does, and makes decisions in the interest of the working class which it also demonstrably does. The fact that you have private companies in China doesn't make it any more capitalist than having free healthcare in Canada make it communist.

                Why would the government ever decide to give up its joint wealth and power with the billionaire class? What could the workers possibly do to hold them accountable?

                Here's an entire book you can read on the subject if you were genuinely interested in this question https://redletterspp.com/products/the-east-is-still-red

                • Here’s the reality of poverty in India https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/governance/just-how-poor-is-india-10-per-cent-says-the-world-bank-85225

                  Would you mind explaining which data in particular you are looking at? According to your source, poverty rate in India has dropped from 22.5% in 2011 to 10% in 2019.

                  Why is India not having the same kind of rapid increase, why is it getting worse there

                  It's not getting worse, it's getting much better, just at a worse rate than economists projected. I'm baffled that you can misunderstand a 5-minute read so badly.

                  , why did capitalism create the same problems in post Soviet countries? I love how you keep dodging these questions here.

                  I don't think even the most pro-Capitalist person would try to tell you that Capitalism can fix all the problems of a collapsed communist society in only 30 years.

                  Here’s an entire book you can read on the subject if you were genuinely interested in this question https://redletterspp.com/products/the-east-is-still-red

                  I'll see if I can pirate an audiobook, I'm not interested enough to read a book on it. I read some summaries and it looks like massive overkill for a really simple direct question. Maybe you should just stop dodging this question: how will workers take back the power and wealth of the billionaire class?

                  • Would you mind explaining which data in particular you are looking at? According to your source, poverty rate in India has dropped from 22.5% in 2011 to 10% in 2019.

                    The one that says that Indian government refuses to publish the full numbers. I'm just going to ask you straight up whether you genuinely think the poverty reduction in India is comparable to China, because if that's so there's absolutely no point continuing this discussion.

                    I don’t think even the most pro-Capitalist person would try to tell you that Capitalism can fix all the problems of a collapsed communist society in only 30 years.

                    Except there was no collapsed communist society. You just made that up. What actual studies show is that over 7 million people died as a result of capitalism being introduced. https://academic.oup.com/cje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cje/beac072/7081084?guestAccessKey=01c8dd9f-af1c-48b3-b271-eb5d3a45017c&login=false

                    If that's your idea of fixing things what else is there to say to you.

                    I’ll see if I can pirate an audiobook, I’m not interested enough to read a book on it. I read some summaries and it looks like massive overkill for a really simple direct question.

                    It's pretty wild that you say you're not interested enough to read a book on a subject you've been arguing about for two days straight. You clearly have very strong opinions on this, but you refuse to even read a book about it?

                    Maybe you should just stop dodging this question: how will workers take back the power and wealth of the billionaire class?

                    I didn't dodge that question. I answered it repeatedly. Workers already took power in China when the revolution happened. The government in China is by the workers and for the workers. You only have to look at the composition of the party to see that. If you bothered to learn how Chinese government works then you wouldn't be repeating nonsense here like a broken record.

                    China isn't run by the billionaire class. In fact, billionaires regularly being sentenced to jail and even executed is another clear difference between China and actual capitalist societies where such things simply don't happen.

                    All your claims have been debunked in detail by main people. Maybe spend the time actually learning about China instead of arguing here ignorantly?

                    • I changed my mind, I might read the book, it looks AMAZING. Remember how my original point was the communists are bad at messaging because they can't handle any criticism, they're super defensive, and they blame everything on the West? It's an entire book dedicated to proving my point.

                      Workers already took power in China when the revolution happened. The government in China is by the workers and for the workers. You only have to look at the composition of the party to see that.

                      Biden was a working class man, looks like the US is run by the working class.

                      China isn't run by the billionaire class. In fact, billionaires regularly being sentenced to jail and even executed is another clear difference between China and actual capitalist societies where such things simply don't happen.

                      Very true a lot of them are executed, but also China loves it's executions, and the US hardly executes anyone anymore.

                      Sending them to jail is good, better than the US, but why even allow billionaires to exist? You still have very poor people and the wealth is being gobbled up by the 500 greediest.

                      All your claims have been debunked in detail by main people.

                      I'm so debunked, let's not forget your best bangers: "westoid cesspool", a clown face 🤡, posting a source that you interpreted completely wrong, and giving me a whole book because you can't answer a question.

                      • I changed my mind, I might read the book, it looks AMAZING. Remember how my original point was the communists are bad at messaging because they can’t handle any criticism, they’re super defensive, and they blame everything on the West? It’s an entire book dedicated to proving my point.

                        What you evidently don't realize is that you're looking in a mirror here. You are smug and arrogant, you refuse to even consider the possibility that you might be wrong even though you openly admit to having superficial knowledge of the subject. Then you get upset that people don't take your criticisms seriously.

                        Biden was a working class man, looks like the US is run by the working class.

                        See this is precisely the smug sort of ignorance I'm talking about right there. If you bothered to actually learn how the party works in China, then you'd see how utterly hilarious your comment is. Pretty much all the party members come from working class, and they regularly engage with the people in their communities, and do actual community work. Party members are even on the frontlines when there are natural disasters. Comparing that to the oligarchy you have in US is equal parts sad and hilarious.

                        Very true a lot of them are executed, but also China loves it’s executions, and the US hardly executes anyone anymore.

                        Your orientalism is showing again.

                        Sending them to jail is good, better than the US, but why even allow billionaires to exist? You still have very poor people and the wealth is being gobbled up by the 500 greediest.

                        I've already explained this to you. China has to exist in a world that's been dominated by US capitalists. If you bother studying a bit of history, you'll see the problems USSR had as a result of trying to compete with the US dominated world. While you smugly blame all the problems on USSR on communism, the reality is that it was under siege from your empire throughout its whole existence.

                        It's pretty funny how this works isn't it. If a country disengages from the capitalist world and capitalists choke it to death then you point to it as a failure of communism. If a country finds a compromise that allows it to exist within capitalism then it's not real communism. So, you anarchists want us all to keep living in hell because real world solutions just don't live up to your perfect standards.

                        giving me a whole book because you can’t answer a question.

                        Sorry, I forgot that reading to an anarchist is like garlic to a vampire.

                    • The one that says that Indian government refuses to publish the full numbers.

                      I just love that you misread the numbers to reach the conclusion you wanted, and not the real conclusion. And when I call you out, without a beat you pivot to "oh actually it's that we don't have the Indian government's numbers".

                      This is apex "communists are not capable of admitting they could make a mistake".

                      It's okay man, we're all just human, we all make little mistakes sometimes. I've certainly apologized for mistakes on this site before.

549 comments