Wagner boss Prigozhin killed in plane crash in Russia
Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin killed in plane crash in Russia, with nine other people on board also dead
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Ukraine has had a far right problem but lots of countries do. Doesn't mean it's more than the fringe as it is in other countries and it's CERTAINLY not a credible talking point or justification for war to invade a sovereign democracy. And the stupid part is that this shit still goes onto today, even to this comment where you attempt to justify it.
The collective west does have a Nazi problem, it's acute in Ukraine.
Ukraine has been getting shelled for over 8 years now, it's been the Ukrainian government doing it, and that specifically has been what provoked the invasion.
It's just observable reality, idk what's so hard about remembering events from a few years ago for liberals
Svoboda having one seat in the Rada kind of acute?
As far as general patriotism is concerned sure that's on an all-time high in Ukraine but guess what, that kind of stuff happens if you get invaded. Which started in 2014, don't forget that, and Ukraine has been under hybrid attack from Russia since at least 2000, the 90s being only a brief respite from centuries of colonialism and that only because Russia didn't know WTF it was doing.
The important part is the type of nationalism you see. And that's much closer to the likes of the SNP than to Nazis.
"general patriotism" I see swastikas, things that sub in for swastikas, iron crosses, and totenkopfs.
You can fuck right off with the "centuries of colonialism" that's literlly the west repackaging its own history to accuse others of.
I thought you guys were the ones who said that portions of a country can unilaterally vote to leave and its okay. That was what you lot pulled with Serbia, why does it suddenly no longer apply here?
So the Bundeswehr is a Nazi org because it's using the iron cross as emblem?
You can fuck right off with the “centuries of colonialism” that’s literlly the west repackaging its own history to accuse others of.
So Russia suddenly isn't European? That would come as news to Europe.
That was what you lot pulled with Serbia, why does it suddenly no longer apply here?
I was a bit too young to have much of an opinion or impact there. In any case very much unlike Ukraine, Serbia actually was genociding people. "Get genocided by your central state, get independence" is more than fair if you ask me.
I was a bit too young to have much of an opinion or impact there. In any case very much unlike Ukraine, Serbia actually was genociding people. "Get genocided by your central state, get independence" is more than fair if you ask me.
The Ukrainian state has been killing civilians indiscriminately in its two breakaway regions, they were just doing it for much longer than it took for any kind of intervention in Serbia.
When the west starts to pretend to care about muslims, you know they're full of shit about any purported genocides. They went from pretending to care about Kosovar Albanians to murdering millions of muslims over the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
So the Bundeswehr is a Nazi org because it's using the iron cross as emblem?
It's pretty funny having iron crosses constantly showing up on all the UA vehicles- I think we all know what they're going for, they just left off a few lines.
So Russia suddenly isn't European? That would come as news to Europe.
Russia has not been a part of 'the west', certainly not as far as most of the EU is concerned unless you're trying to be intentionally obtuse
Russia has not been a part of ‘the west’, certainly not as far as most of the EU is concerned unless you’re trying to be intentionally obtuse
It has been a colonial empire for quite a while now. Or do you really think this didn't happen with military force? That it's just the natural extent of the Russian nation? Or that the Empire didn't brutally exploit every new territory they conquered? "Colony" doesn't mean "overseas".
Every single larger, or affluent, European country engaged in colonialism.
It’s pretty funny having iron crosses constantly showing up on all the UA vehicles
That's the Cossack cross. The Cossacks got it from the Templars, same root as the Iron Cross.
The Ukrainian state has been killing civilians indiscriminately in its two breakaway regions
Отъебись ватник блядь.
Were the Russians also doing chattel slavery like the west was for literally hundreds of years? Like sure conditions for serfs weren't great, but the transatlantic slave trade, the mass genocide of the americas, the subjugation of africa, india and china built the wealth of europe. You're trying to act like these two things are the same and they're not
Отъебись ватник блядь.
lmao
seriously though:
The Ukrainian state has been killing civilians indiscriminately in its two breakaway regions
Where's the lie? You guys think that's a good thing. Link to more info
Like sure conditions for serfs weren’t great,
They were abhorrent. You're really playing semantics here, conditions were essentially slave-like just as, say, Cuba under Batista.
built the wealth of europe
No. Water power did, Europe has an absurd number of suitable streams for grain mills which allowed the creation of extensive trade, merchant, and scholar classes -- as they could be fed. Which led to technological superiority which led to the capacity to roll over other nations (and the presumption that it was the right thing to do). Without that pre-existing wealth all that colonising would not have been possible.
Where’s the lie? You guys think that’s a good thing.
You're accusing me of condoning or advocating genocide?
No. Water power did, Europe has an absurd number of suitable streams for grain mills allowing less the creation of extensive trade, merchant, and scholar classes. Which led to technological superiority which led to the capacity to roll over other nations (and the presumption that it was the right thing to do). Without that pre-existing wealth all that colonising would not have been possible.
It was definitely the slavery
You're accusing me of condoning or advocating genocide?
You already told me to fuck off for pointing out that parts of Ukraine have been getting shelled by its own government for over 8 years, considering that response, yes that was my conclusion.
You already told me to fuck off for pointing out that parts of Ukraine have been getting shelled by its own government for over 8 years,
No. I told you to fuck off for this:
The Ukrainian state has been killing civilians indiscriminately in its two breakaway regions
Yes, Ukraine has been shelling Russian positions in those regions for quite a while now.
They were abhorrent. You're really playing semantics here, conditions were essentially slave-like just as, say, Cuba under Batista.
Yes it was bad, still not as bad as chattel slavery, but pretty bad, that's why it was completely deserved when they had a revolution. Not sure why you keep bringing up the colonization of siberia like it's relevant to what's going on now though. Comparing the amount of human life lost in that to the conquest of Americas though is just silly- there's no comparison and the same American government is still around since then!
You mean they've been fighting Russian backed separatists that were trying to join their regions with Russia
If they want to live under a totalitarian regime they were always free to move to Russia themselves
Ah yes the ever popular "they should have self deported instead of getting ethnically cleansed"
How come you guys were okay with kosovo 'voting' to leave Serbia, but suddenly this is a bridge too far?
The trick is they know zero specifics of either situation
You guys
Do you realize how sociopathic this sounds? Are all separatists deserving of being bombed by the country they live under? Would you say the same to the people of Yemen, or Palestine or Ethiopia? “You’re being bombed, so just leave”?
Would you say the same to the people of Yemen, or Palestine or Ethiopia?
Depressingly for many libs the answer is yes because guy with blue tie was president and responsible for bombing them. Guy in red tie too but that's less relevant. Kosovo and Syria are better examples.
If they are trying to join Russia, yes. No need to pull their neighbours into that
But it's okay for neighbors to pull their neighbors into IMF debt servitude, to say nothing of couping the government because it wasn't pro-west enough. Really letting the euro chauvinism fly there.
they were always free to move
Word for word right-wing talking point
Ok boomer
Upgrade your insults from the 2019 edition
Ok boomer
If they want to live under a totalitarian regime they were always free to move to Russia themselves
This is literally just "if you hate america ukraine so much, go back to your own country!" repainted as a liberal viewpoint
Should the Bosnian Muslims just have gone back to their own country to avoid being murdered by right wing paramilitaries too?
Wait so you believe paramilitary groups were ethnically cleansing ethnic Russians in the Donbas in/pre 2014? Do you have any sources for this?
Careful not to let your MAGA hat fall when you yell at the clouds.
What does totalitarian mean?
Well for one example: if you pose a real political threat to the regime, you get thrown into prison or out of a window
How is that different than any functioning state?
What would happen to you if you started a tv show where you publicly talk about the crimes of your government? It might come as a shock but there are plenty of countries where you can do this without falling out of your window
Thinking "starting a TV show" = "pose a real political threat to the regime" is the most liberal brained thing I can imagine.
Ask Fred Hampton what happens to actual threats to the regime.
Sure that's one good example (although it's always a bit more risky if you're starting an armed self defense force). But you might just want to ponder a little bit on why you have to go back 50+ years for it.
I see. So are you going to follow this line of thought to it's natural conclusion and become an anarchist? /s
Doesn't mean it's more than the fringe
I guess you didn't pay attention. Whenever they post pictures of Ukrainian soldiers there's a good chance that you will see a Totenkopf or a Black Sun badge. When western news interviews lesser known Ukrainian politicians, there's a good chance that you will see a Bandera portrait in the background.
The rise of the ukrainian far right has been well documented in western media before the invasion. Hell, google "Western media before February of 2022"
a sovereign democracy[Citation needed]
In fact it's neither sovereign, since the US couped Ukraine in 2014, nor it is a democracy, but an extremely corrupt oligarchic capitalist country. The contrast with Russia lies in the absence of a single pivotal leader like Putin, and they fully adhere to Western interests.
This doesn't make the invasion "good" as in "Aragorn is a good guy". The NATO encroaching makes it understandable. Which is completely different from "good". Understandable means that there is some kind of rationality at play. Which means it was probably preventable. Which means that some kind of solution is to be had. Hopefully...
Sorry but this is utter bollocks.
bollocks
I see the cognitive dissonance is kicking in for you. Hopefully you will recover, and you'll read western mainstream narratives more critically.
How funny is this bit though?
"The BBC had been among the first to warn of Azov, criticizing Kyiv in 2014 for ignoring a group that “sports three Nazi symbols on its insignia.” A 2018 report noted Azov’s “well-established links to the far right.”
Shortly after Putin’s invasion, though, the BBC began to assert that although “to Russia, they are neo-Nazis and their origins lie in a neo-Nazi group,” the Azov Regiment was being “falsely portrayed as Nazi” by Moscow."
They suddenly became not-nazis in February 2022? But they kept the wolfsangel? Was BBC spouting Russian misinfo in 2014? Or was it a Russian time travelling double agent who wrote all those articles for prominent western papers about the concerning rise of neonazis in Ukraine? If they are so fringe, why are they giving them so much airtime?
Azov has been getting denazified ever since it became an official battalion. A huge number of Nazis left, regular people joined, are there still Nazis left? Probably, yes, but they're not running around with SS runes on their helmets that shit doesn't fly.
As far as the Wolfangel is concerned: It's not a clear Nazi symbol. Tons of German tows have it on their coat of arms.
Stop trying to rehabilitate the wolfsangel. If your town had it for three centuries then maybe that’s not nazi symbolism. If you join a nationalist right wing regiment and get it tattooed on yourself, that’s Nazi symbolism.
Think about it like the swastika. If someone is choosing it now, in Europe, in a right wing military organization, they’re nazis, not fans of Indian symbols and culture. Do you know how I can tell?
Think about it like the swastika.
No. Then we can also throw away pretty much all of Germanic culture as the Nazis appropriated all of it. It would mean we'd let them win after the fact.
It's more like the number 88: Sure, might be a Nazi, might also be a guy born in 88. People not knowledgeable about Nazi symbolism don't actually recognise it as Nazi symbolism which is a gigantic difference to the Swastika. But that's about the Wolfsangel in general.
Regarding Azov, should the logo have been changed? On balance, I say it would've been a good idea, especially since it's 1:1 the Svoboda Wolfsangel.
oh no, not germanic cultutre appropriated by the nazis and wideley seen as dogwhistles! how will the world move on?
your'e absolutely right that the wolfsangel is like the number 88. maybe someone with it in a username or email was born or married that year. but when they're joining a nationalist right wing militia the number 88 means they're a nazi
we're not talking about random people on the street with tee shirts that have wolfsangels on em (btw they'd be nazis too). we're talking about people joining a famously right wing, nationalist militia in a country with a long history of nazism. they didn't pick those symbols out because they just love interesting history!
when people choose symbols associated with nazis now they're nazis. i'm sorry, that's just reality.
No, we're not talking about that. You are. All I said about the Wolfsangel is that it's not an unambigiously nazi symbol, which you just agreed to, the rest is you foaming at the mouth.
Yes, Azov at the beginning was a Nazi org, otherwise it would hardly had to have get denazified when getting rolled into official state structures, now would it. What's your fucking problem.
My problem is that we’re not talking about this in a vacuum. We aren’t having a nice little hypothetical conversation about weather or not you can judge the town of burgweldel for having a wolfsangel on their town coat of arms.
We are talking about people joining a right wing nationalist militia using the wolfsangel. In the context of this conversation it is unambiguously a Nazi dogwhistle and indefensible, unless you want to defend Nazis. Do you want to defend Nazis?
We are talking about people joining a right wing nationalist militia using the wolfsangel. In the context of this conversation it is unambiguously a Nazi dogwhistle and indefensible, unless you want to defend Nazis.
Again: Azovs at the beginning was a Nazi org. I never did say anything to the contrary. Yes they absolutely chose it because of its implications.
On the other side of the equation we have plenty of army insignia all over Europe using the Wolfsangel, both historically (pre-Nazi) and contemporarily -- it's a hunting weapon, after all, you shouldn't be more surprised to see it on military insignia than a sword or bow and arrow.
Should Azov have changed their logo? I do think so. But at the same time it's not valid to say "Because they still use the same symbol they're still Nazis".
Surely you can't be this gullible
oh, okay, good talk
I don't know what you think I'm trying to justify. You said:
When you see people on the hard left screeching about Ukrainian Nazis or advancing absurd peace deals then they’ve been gotten at.
I explained that the 'hard left' has been concerned about Nazis in Ukraine for a long time. You can understand that communists are going to keep a close eye on countries that ban communist parties. Yes other places have a far right problem too. Communists keep an eye on reactionaries elsewhere as well but it's hardly germane to a conversation about the circumstances of a war in Ukraine, is it?
It's not the historical "concern", it's the constant parroting of Russian talking points by useful idiots on the far left. "Oh look at these Nazis [showing picture from 2014]", meanwhile Ukraine is actually a pluralist democracy and has a professional / conscript army fighting an invasion. They're not Nazis in aggregate or even substantially. It's sort of shit I'm obviously referring to.
pluralist democracy
Pluralist democracy is when you seize power through force and then ban opposition parties.
"Seize power by force and other things that only happened in my imagination"
Sometimes I forget just how little y'all know about the history of this conflict.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/ukraine-bans-communist-party-separatism
The pictures I'm taking about have been taken and shared since the invasion. This is not 'historical' in the sense of pre-dating the invasion.
In any event, if the people you're talking to are discussing reasons for the invasion, the salient facts are the ones that pre-date the invasion. Nobody had the benefit of being able to see facts or pictures taken after the invasion before it occurred; these newer details could not have factored into the equation beforehand. Which may explain (I have no idea because you're talking in the abstract and not providing receipts) why people would bring up the (highly relevant) historical context.
Ukraine is under martial law. Eleven opposition parties have been suspended. The communist party was banned and it's assets seized. This is not what democracy looks like. It is in no way pluralist. Maybe you have a different definition of pluralist democracy than I do.
Will things improve after the war? It's hard to say now but considering that Ukraine went after the communist party eight or more years ago, it's unlikely. The fate of 'pro-Russian' parties depends on who wins the war. They'll either be demonised or praised for being 'right all along'. You can guess how the narrative will be rewritten, either way.
Unfortunately, the aftermath of this war will be terrible for years. That outlook is even bleaker if Ukraine loses with any kind of quasi-military intact. They are now even more heavily armed than before, they will be pissed at losing, and they will be more battle hardened than ever. So even if Russia wins, the political landscape will look different throughout the region, but it's unlikely to become a pluralist democracy. (Please notice the 'ifs' in this paragraph, I have made no prediction as to who will 'win'.)
You can refer to whatever you like. You are imputing motive on people for saying things you don't like. That does not mean that the imputed motive is the real motive. Some people have a more nuanced take on the war than you are willing to accept. Having a nuanced understanding of a complicated issue requires an understanding of as many factors as possible.
Looking at a process (e.g. war) in all its relations (internal, historical, political economic, to start with) is the basic Marxist approach and yet is alien to the liberal/bourgeois approach, so I understand if this is unfamiliar to you. If you want to see whether communists do this kind of thing with any other topic (it's literally every topic) please pick up almost any Marxist text. Marx's 'Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte' is a good example of this 'historical materialism'.
I don't want to impute motive to you, so I'll just say that I don't understand why you're trying so hard to erase or apologise for the fact that Ukraine had and has a Nazi problem. Nobody that I know of is claiming that the Nazis are in control of every state civil or military organ. Usually, the claim is that the yanks funded anti-Russian, pro-west separatists and the Nazi militias to provoke Russia. Read that how you will.
