1w ago

8 billion people vs. 3000 billionaires: Who would win?

Elaborate and explain

You're viewing part of a thread.

Show Context

160 comments

You claim to want the same outcomes as me, but your method of naysaying and picking at every detail will mostly lead to people disengaging with the conversation entirely. That's actively harmful to the movement's progress.
- Ignoring the most basic attention to detail is much worse than over-attention to detail. While they deserve consideration, optics are secondary to functionality. The most popular plan in the world is useless if it doesn't actually function.
  Engagement is nothing without substance. You're putting the cart before the horse.
  
  You are well beyond "most basic", and also I disagree. Over-attention to detail is a very easy way to make nothing happen at all, which is currently killing people. I'm not the person who's going to map out a detailed plan to get to that society, nor do I think an internet comment section is the place to do that. Especially when what we're talking about is global revolution which absolutely necessitates broad engagement with many many people who don't know all the details and really don't need to. This is a very appropriate context to be talking in broad strokes. And if you want to wait for some perfect plan with every detail in exactly the right place, you'll be waiting until the heat death of the universe.
  
  You are well beyond "most basic"
  No, I'm not. You've provided nothing except some vague allusions to libraries and the Incas. That is not even the most basic level of detail.
  Over-attention to detail is a very easy way to make nothing happen at all, which is currently killing people.
  Under-attention is a very easy way to make things worse in your recklessness. You think people are dying now, what do you think of going to happen when the entire global economic system is plunged into chaos?
  And who is disengaged when discussing details? You think someone like that it's going to be useful at all in a revolution? Under-attention will scare off practical detail oriented people in exchange for the vague approval of lazy dullards. Lazy dullards are not useful to the cause at this stage. Practical detail oriented people are. Under-attention hurts more than over-attention.
  nor do I think an internet comment section is the place to do that.
  If a worldwide network of like-minded people of various specialties and expertise isn't the place, where is?
  Especially when what we're talking about is global revolution which absolutely necessitates broad engagement with many many people who don't know all the details and really don't need to.
  You're still putting the cart before the horse. Engagement isn't enough, you actually have to have the plan first before you worry about engagement. I see no plan. You can't have a successful global revolution without a plan, no matter how much engagement you have.
  This is a very appropriate context to be talking in broad strokes
  You're not taking in broad strokes, "Money bad" isn't useful engagement. You have to pair that with what's good, or you look like a foolish child with cardboard wings.
  wait for some perfect plan with every detail in exactly the right place
  Again, not talking about a perfect plan, just a plan. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be practical. "Money bad" is not a plan, "the Incas" is not a plan. I'm not going to encourage jumping off the roof base on stitch vague notions, and I won't sit by while fools do.
  Figure out what the replacement is before you dismantle the global economy.
  
  We have to agree "money bad" before making a plan to move beyond it.
  My talking about about the Incas and different non-monetary systems isn't me trying to make a plan, it's trying to show the possibility of the concept.
  We're never going to pull off a revolution without numbers. And only giving air to the "practical detail oriented" people while name calling the rest is a great way to make sure you never get those numbers.
  And yes, there is a plan that I did mention, socialism. But that's not how you phrased your initial engagement with my comment.
  
  We have to agree "money bad" before making a plan to move beyond it.
  Yes, but that's not the thing you said that I disagree with:
  humanity absolutely has the ability to coordinate action without money at least as well (if not better) than how it is now
  Replace "ability" with "potential" and I agree with you, but as written this is misleading. It assumes the planning has concluded, and a new system is ready to be implemented. This is not the case.
  there is a plan that I did mention, socialism
  Either "socialism" refers specifically to the USSR's plan, in which case we've seen that fall to corruption, or it refers to a more general concept, in which case that's more of an ideology than a plan. At best it's a general roadmap, but it's not policy by a mile.
  Socialism is not immune to corruption. No matter what system you use, people will find the loopholes and vulnerabilities and blind spots. You're just trading billionaires for bureaucrats. Even in a direct democracy, they'll start podcasts to sway public opinion. They'll steal from library economies, they'll loaf in spontaneous mutualism.
  You cannot eliminate this element, you can only change its form.
  
  If you're asking what I think the best way forward is, please just ask that from the beginning. My answer might've been that I've been working with the PSL and think they have a pretty good idea of a socialist America. Instead we're bickering over the definition of "ability".
  Otherwise, you're just arguing for the status quo that everyone hates.
  
  I find it extremely ironic that you worry about scaring people off with practical details, but see no conflict in promoting a party which liberally uses poisoned leftist language. McCarthyism happened, the Cold War happened. Accurate terminology has been turned into boogeyman words.
  The average American hears "socialism", and they think of gulags and breadlines and authoritarianism. I'm not saying that's an accurate conception, I'm just saying that's the consequence of a century of anti-left propaganda.
  If you're worried about alienating people, start with your messaging. I fully believe that a socialist party will be substantially more successful if they embrace patriotic, market based, Christian language.
  It's not socialism in the workplace, it's making every worker a stakeholder. It's not UBI, it's an investment in Americans. We're not sissy bleeding heart libcucks obsessed with handouts, we're spreading Jesus' message of feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and embracing immigrants as we were immigrants in Egypt.
  If you care about the persuasive content of the message, then care about it. Don't clutch your pearls when people want their plans to be actual plans because that might scare people off, then push a party using poisoned language.
  I don't oppose the stated goals of the PSL, but you have to realize that, in America at least, socialist vocabulary is more divisive and alienating than sober, pragmatic tactics.
  
  I find it extremely ironic that someone who seems to have such strong opinions on communication is so bad at. You bring up not awful and not unheard of points about using conservative language to draw people to the left. That could've been a much more productive discussion.
  The biggest reason I never told you what my plan was is because you never asked for it. The initial point I was making was about how money is bad and we don't need it. Then you attacked my phrasing. You could've even briefly corrected my phrasing and then gone on to talk or ask about what the path to get there is. Instead you ranted about what tense I was using and how other economic systems don't work.
  The way you've communicated with me makes it seem like your goal is alienating people.
  
  I didn't know how many more ways I can say the same thing Even the PSL website outlines solutions which still involve money.
  Don't say things that may lead to swaths of people jumping off metaphorical roofs. Take responsibility for your message, and refine it when problematic. Be precise.
  
  And above all jump down the throat of anyone who doesn't enunciate a point perfectly, it should be our goal to discourage engagement as much as possible /s

160 comments