3d ago

Is it possible to build a Western Left anymore?

I’m an American Marxist-Leninist, so I know that it is materially possible for a privileged westerner to come around. But a few of us being able to unlearn the constant propaganda and overcome the horrific state of American education and the political climate isn’t enough.

The Overton window is so far to the right here in the United States that most don’t entertain the idea of a future beyond capitalism being possible or necessary. Even when Americans see this wretched system for what it is, they’d sooner turn to nihilism or accept whatever additional crumbs are thrown.

I know it’s important to maintain revolutionary optimism and always strive to be part of the solution, but it feels like an extra big battle to build a proper revolutionary left.

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It may be one of the biggest obstacles in the US is getting people to understand imperialism and colonialism, and further, what that means for people living in the US. That the US cannot simply "do a socialism" and have "what it has right now, but distributed better among its citizenry." It needs to end its exploitation of other countries; it needs to end its continued poor recognition of indigenous sovereignty; it needs to systemically end the institution of whiteness as it contributes to it and find ways to rehabilitate, culturally, those who are stuck in the viewpoint of thinking white is an inherent part of one's identity, rather than a construct based in notions of racial supremacy. These things are a bare minimum for it to be on the right track and some of these things may mean more instability for a while and some sacrifices made while rebuilding more so the local capabilities of the region for self-sustenance and caretaking of the environment.
But to people who are working a hard job, burning out, and for whom imperialism is largely an invisible bunch of mechanisms, this may sound like a lot of "I'm supposed to sacrifice even more because of stuff I never wanted or knew was happening in the first place."
And I think some people can take it like it's this guilt thing (like the "I shouldn't complain because of how much worse some people have it" trope), that it's about them needing to feel bad in some penitential way and wear a hair shirt for their sins of being part of such a system, when it's more about recognizing what is deeply wrong with the system so that we can do dramatically better and so that we aren't just fighting for "an empire with a slightly better off working class."
- I'm going to speak on the US as I'm familiar with it.
  These things are a bare minimum for it to be on the right track and some of these things may mean more instability for a while and some sacrifices made while rebuilding more so the local capabilities of the region for self-sustenance and caretaking of the environment.
  But to people who are working a hard job, burning out, and for whom imperialism is largely an invisible bunch of mechanisms, this may sound like a lot of "I'm supposed to sacrifice even more because of stuff I never wanted or knew was happening in the first place."
  Apologies but I think a part of the problem is that even we here in thus chat are capitulation to right wing framing, or are incapable of reframing what these "sacrifices" are. If you tell a working class American struggling to survive they must "sacrifice" for the sake of internationalism, of course they are going to react n a hostile manner.
  Are there hints that Americans will lose out on? Yes, we know that, but why are we framing this as if it's purely a losx and that nothing will be gained from socialism. The reason that Americans keep falling for Soc Dems isn't because they outwardly say "we are going to do imperialism to sustain dollar hedgomony with a progressive face." Maybe socdem supporters say that but that's not why they were attracted to the Social democratic charlatans.
  They were attracted becuase those socdems told them, and this us largely true, that the stark inequality of wealth is the cause of the People's issues, and if things were even slightly reorganized, their lives would improve.
  Most people on the US who struggle want their basic necessities met. They want access to affordable food, to be housed without exorbitant rent, to have access to medical care without going into debt, to be able to go to school and not graduate with loans, to have any damn say in their own work places.
  None of these core necessities are impossible to achieve without imperialism, and its proven by the fact that there are Global South nations that do it while suffering from imperialism. The treats and luxuries that Americans will suffer, especially the petty bourgeoisie and labor aristocracy, are dependent on the system of imperialism.
  Most Americans, if they actually experienced the boons of socialism, won't see what are argued as sacrifices as actual sacrifices.
  We need to stop framing anti-imperialism as purely a sacrifice on behalf of the global south (this should never be severed but focusing on it purely is a rhetorically uphill battle), but instead frame it how it's structure prevents progress in the US. That is:
  "If You (Americans) want to be housed, want food (that we over produce) to be affordable, want to stop getting involved in foreign conflicts, and want to never have to worry about having employment, then it can't be built on the faulty foundation of imperialism. Anyone who tells you differenty is trying to remove these guarantees and just wants you to shut up."
  However, I agree with you that the hardest part of trying to mobilize for socialism in the US is getting people to confront the settler structure and whiteness. Those are the things I genuinely see as the most difficult to get Americans to understand, though I've had success when using Palestine as a jumping off point, as more and more people are willing to listen when you act like an authority on a conflict they are sympathetic to but woefully uninformed about.
  Americans are stubborn and annoying yes, however we often shoot ourselves in the foot by, ironically, not bringing forth the interrelatedness of imperialism to instability at the core of our propaganda. If the narrative people must confront forces them to choose between;
  have your necessities completely guaranteed but need to work harder or get cheap McDonald's while live out of a car and still working hard
  Most people will choose the former. The problem is we don't rhetorically corner them into this choice, and instead get bogged down entirely on individually explaining particular sacrifices.
  Another way to put it:
  If Americans want to live like humans then their state must be human.
  If their state acts like a beast, then Americans will be treated like beasts.
  I don't disagree with your comment comrade but I've found that we more often then not frame tge sacrifices of the west as you described in your comment. As if we are asking people to "sacrifice for things I never wanted in the first place." Rather then asking "this is what you would need to give up so your sacrifice can actually be rewarded."
  So much of capitalist propaganda is obfuscating what Socialism actually is, and many people attacking us are attacking out of a misunderstanding. I know this because its one of the main things that comes into play whenever my mother and I disagree. Often she's simply misunderstanding the point I am making because she's conditioned to frame it in a bourgeois manner, however when I'm able to clear up the misunderstanding she nearly always comes to agree, and states how she was incorrect in her understanding. I've had this experience with others as well, and I think many of us face a similar predicament.
  
  Fair points, thanks for the correction. My own understanding is never complete.
  I think where I'm coming from is the understanding that the US is at this point a very "financialized economy" (I believe is the term) and has more limited productive capacity internally than it used to, due to so much outsourcing over the years. So my thought process is that things have to come from somewhere and if a lot of it is coming through exploitative relationships, those things would be disrupted in the process of ending exploitation. That may be wrong though, or an exaggerated understanding of the dynamic in the logistics of it.
  
  I think your understanding is correct and that in order to create a more sustainable system adjustments need to be made, such as rebuilding production facilities in the US and redirecting the service sector towards this production. Also wages, especially for labor aristocrats, will need to decrease or stagnate. These things are being represented as sacrifices, however the policies of a socialist program would oughtweigh their effects. It's not as if a socialist US (I know it's problematic to refer to as such but for the sake of convention I'll use it) would implement this wage stagnation without also implementing affordable rent control, seizure of agricultural products/land (which far an away enough to geed everyone), allow access the health care (only expensive due to insurance/pharmaceutical corporations), reorganizing workplaces into a representative state structure (this would likely remove the bloat of executives so it would potentially improve the wages of non-labor aristocrats).
  The financialization of the American economy will have consequences in our restructuring of it, however those consequences won't only be bad for American workers, in fact they'd beneficial. The trap is in assuming these can coexist with imperialism, which they cannot, and would be unsustainable.
  Your analysis is correct, but if we want the west to have an organized left, that analysis must be framed in a way that makes people understand why socialism is to their ultimate benifet. Framing things as sacrifices, rhetorically implies that the current system is superior in certain individual ways. This suggests that economic systems are atomized individual processes all remote from another. We know, however, that they are in fact interdependent dynamic processes that collectively move forward.
  If we reframe again, what exactly determines that our proposals are sacrifices, but doesn't label the daily alienation of workers as a sacrifice? Why is having less options of shitty fast food considered a sacrifice, but being forced to go hungry in order to pay rent isn't called out as a sacrifice? What makes having to work where the state tells you a sacrifice, but not having the option to work is somehow not a sacrifice people make to capitalism?
  I'm just commenting this for the sake f understanding how rhetoric Luke our own can sometimes capitulate to capitalists when we really don't need to, and a simple reframing of the discussion exposes this hypocrisy.
  
  The left in america also tails after white urban yuppies, which are one of the most disloyal sectors of the american populace. Any party worth a damn needs to build a strong base and grow upwards from that. But the most disenfranchised are not easily reached/organized as the average bernie bro/mamdani voter.
  
  This is why I try to create discussions within my mosque, and why I've found campus organizing to be useful. Marginalized communities often don't trust white organizers in the first place, which is fair and something I myself hold suspicion over, therefore there needs to be internal organizing. It's also helpful for white organizers to actually listen to what leftists in those communities have to say about intercommunal contradictions.
  Personally I've got some amount of faith that things will go better then we expect the next few decades, but vigilance is important. As much as we all rag on its clear that public opinion has turned against Israel largely due to the efforts of Palestinian advocates winning the information war. Any time I've had tge displeasure of speaking to a zionist among a public audience, they've been thoroughly trounced by their terrible arguments and public disconnect.
  It's really amazing, I must say, how easy it is to draw a parallel with Palestine on nearly every issue concerning capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism. People are receptive to it as well, and can be led to make socialist conclusions, on their own even, when you outline the Palestinian struggle.
  We are at the start of a paradigm shift in the west at the moment, and I truly believe we can bring this momentum into something tangible.

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