TRUE communism!
TRUE communism!
Cross-posted from "TRUE communism!" by @Muaddib@sopuli.xyz in !politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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473 comments
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Always good to fight other leftists as fascism closes its grip on the imperial core. Great strategy.
(Posts like this aren't allowed on Hexbear, and for good reason. What value is there in shitstirring like this? Why be needlessly antagonistic? I really don't get it.)
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You don't get it we're not leftists, we're red fascists.
Also
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So on Hexbear, attacking communism as capitalism is not allowed, but attacking anarchism as fascism is?
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Nobody attacks anarchists as fascists, they attack illiterate "anarchist" liberals who spend all their time crying about "red fascist tankies" as being the ignorant morons that they are, especially when they coincidentally and repeatedly repeat literal U.S. State Dept propaganda in their efforts to argue with the "red fascists" i.e. the fucking uigher genocide hallucination that you fucking morons are still on about
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anarchism as fascism is?
I think your reading comprehension is poor, or you're referring to something outside of this thread. This is definitely not allowed in Hexbear.
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No, he's referring to communists there.
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Ah, I misunderstood. Sorry.
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I think so. It's a tankie space. Their shit posts still average high qualitu.
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they'd probably also be called "tankies"
Happens to me all the fucking time lmao.
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shit on this account I've been accused of being a tankie for having positions like: hating and fearing china is pretty stupid given their lack of militarism, massive improvements in quality of life for the working class, and frankly astounding technological progress in sustainable technologies.
Apparently wanting to end hierarchy and being sceptical of stateist projects means I have to ignore when they work at all and be constantly at war with like the entire world for not being pure enough. There's enough shit keeping me busy in my own life to make up drama about the spooky red threat that seems to be a surveillance state like... every other highly industrialised society right now.
If they find my hexbear account I will be thrown out of town ;)
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We don't ban hexbears just because they're from hexbear. I've known you've had an account there for years.
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Well of course you know
It is a joke about the content of said account.
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Lemme get the anarcho-police to check it on the tankiemeter....
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For real though, I respect you a fair bit but I do find fanning the flames of this internet slapfight over tankies a bit silly. Ultimately lemmy is not determining the course the future, it's the stuff we do outside and I've never had a conversation come up about whether Stalin's apparent antisemitism was a result of intrinsic bias or complex geopolitical realities outside of lemmy. I've stood in line with people without knowing anything deeper than that they're here now about them. I'd apprehensively (lets be honest protest spoopy) do it again.
Basically everyone people call tankies on lemmy want the same good things as "ideology pure" leftists. We're a tiny minority of a minority, aside from like 3 weird people everyone on hexbear/grad/ml is chill. I don't see this doing much except scaring left curious libs away from studying any ideas more serious than welfare stateism.
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It all comes out now, nobody can survive contact with power. Even administrating a lemmy instance corrupts.
Come see the violence folks, come see anarchy in action!
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I once said something about hating tankies and got name-checked into a thread there. I explained that I don't care for authoritarianism of any kind, and one mouthy punk kept trying to rile me up.
Y'all got a reputation for a reason.
(There were others who were chill about it, but people tend to remember loud assholes better than chill people.)
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Hexbear and its influences have been a disaster for the fediverse.
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we’re a left-unity space
Soooo... a tankie space.
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Terminally online radlibs call me a tankie too so apparently yes...
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Oh, look... an adherent of factory-owner ideology called me a "radlib..."
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How would left unity work?
Anarchism and MLism are so different from each other that any unity between supporters of either would be short lived. Like the unity between the USSR and the USA during WW2.-
In my ideal postrevolutionary society, there would be special political/economic zones where anarchists could live and try to build a model for the society of the future, sheltered from external threats by the communist state. I don't think anarchists and MLs necessarily need to be at odds.
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That's an interesting idea
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You realize that that idea basically means that anarchists would have to help MLs seize power their way, and then hope they stick to their promises (because they're then at their mercy). For me, It's an absurd idea on its face and only serves to make us willing tools.
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You should actually look up the history of and contemporary anarchism in socialist states. Hell Mao himself was in anarchist circles in his college days. You just like to stir shit for no reason at all. This meme you posted is not a principled critique and is just a tired liberal trope. As anarchists we should do better. But frankly I expect nothing better from you given my past encounters with you.
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Sure, but those methods are severly different.
FWIW: I think left unity is pretty important now, during another rise in fascism, but I don't think it will last long.we're just people on a webforum
That's a really good take, actually.
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Personally, I dont think its important if left-unity its temporary or permanent so long as it last long enough to overthrow the capitalist system.
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FWIW: I think left unity is pretty important now, during another rise in fascism, but I don't think it will last long.
As a wise kangaroo once said
We can be friends until after the revolution, after that, naturally, it gets difficult...
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We all have fundamentally the same goals,
Since when was it anarchist's goal to enslave the working class to party bureaucrats?
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Oh, no... seems to me that you tankies just love forcing the working class to contend with a "state of violent primitive chaos."
Hey, you know what? I figured out why you tankies don't just use AI to write all your claptrap secular Catholocist dogma for you - it's because you're afraid AI might actually be more coherent than you are.
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Yep, Russia did the thing.
In the meme image.
Authoritarian Communism broke, then it flipped back to Authoritarian Capitalism.
Yep, it had enemies.
Yep those enemies were very involved in helping it to break.
But this still is what happened.
Yep, it took a while.
Sorry the comic is ~80 years long?
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Horrible line of reasoning. Anarchist projects have all reverted to capitalism much faster than the Soviet Union did.
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Not without being conquered by fascists or red fash. I.e they're internally consistent.
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Okay, so stop being a literal child and draw that thought out to its logical conclusions. I did that fifteen fucking years ago and realized, oh, hey, China isn't Literally Evil for Doing Authoritarianism. They exist in a world with the fucking CIA, and all the feel good anarcho idealism in the world isn't going to protect them from their literal fucking terrorism.
If you actually use your fucking brain you'd understand that it matters what "authority" is used "for." Let me spoil it for you- using it to defend a revolution from internal and external reaction and imperialism IS GOOD, UNLESS YOU'RE A FUCKING REACTIONARY.
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You need hierarchies to defend against imperialism
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You don't need hierarchies to defend against imperialism
Anarchist projects have all reverted to capitalism much faster than the Soviet Union did.
Not without being conquered by fascists or red fash.
You sure you don't need those hierarchies buddy? You suuuuuuuure?
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Yep, I don't want to help bring about a system which will only revert to capitalism on its own.
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So you're happy with a system that will revert to capitalism, your quibble is just over whether it's taken apart by internal or external forces. Yeah, real coherent ideology you got there.
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this is why people like me just laugh and call you a fucking child, because like, what are you even on? What does your revolutionary society look like? How is it organized?
You just out yourself as an ignorant, illiterate fuck who doesn't realize that political anarchism is about the abolition of unjust and arbitrary hierarchies, not some idealist bullshit ass "we need a non hierarchical society" and a belief that you just get there by fucking magic. You are going to need to have a political organization of some kind, and guess what? The establishment of that is inherently fucking hierarchical!
What makes it good is not being a hierarchy based on fucking nobility or property ownership or oppressive class relations, dipshit. You are better off jerking yourself to death in your goon cave than chasing after some platonic ideal of A Lack of Hierarchy when here in the fucking real world the bourgoisie, fascists and cops are closing the noose around your neck and mine.
I'd tell you to grow the fuck up but I know you're just going to keep crying about authority and hierarchy while every single fucking lying weaselly ass statement from your mouth assists the imperialists and the bourgeoisie, whether you know it or not
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Tankies :"immature", "anakiddie", "liberal", "reactionary", "ignorant", "waaaa"
Also tankies : "what about that left unity doe?"
A tale repeated since the nonsense that is "on authority"
But thanks for reinforcing to the audience why one just not align with (nevermind trust) MLs.
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They’re not calling anarchists idiots. They’re explicitly referring to you who started being combative right out of the gate with this dumb fucking meme
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How is it organized?
There's entire books about that. If you want to criticize something so passionately, you should understand what you're criticizing and read up on theory. Or ask your local (instance's) anarchists.
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There's entire books about that
no shit, and none of them say "and we abolish all hierarchy and live in peace and good vibes" like you and dipshit wanna pretend
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and we abolish all hierarchy
yes they do
and live in peace and good vibes
well i’m glad it doesn’t ignore the challenges of reality every system has to face. my impression from what i read of communist literature included stressing pragmatism over idealism (hopefully a good translation of 唯心主义), is that not the case? damned if it isn’t
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The USSR was also destroyed by encirclement and (nearly 100 years) of pressure from reactionaries.
But again, you and and the people on the comm you named after yourself are the ones hypocritically positing that any socialist project that fails is evidence that that project's ideology inevitably leads to capitalist takeover. None of the "tankies" on Hexbear are saying that because it's asinine, but if you actually believe it, to be ideologically consistent, would require condemning anarchism also.
red fash
Deeply unserious
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The USSR was also destroyed by encirclement and (nearly 100 years) of pressure from reactionaries.
Yeah, right... it had absolutely nothing to do with the batshit-insane economic and social blundering of the CPSU.
Nothing at all.
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It was literally the fastest growing economic system of all time. It went from wooden hand-drawn plows to spaceflight in a single generation, while defeating the most devastating invasion in human history. The nation once called "the India of Europe" became the first interplanetary civilization.
Then, after the entire collective might of the capitalist world had slaughtered dozens of millions of the bravest and most committed communists, it started falling apart because liberals took over. It was dissolved illegally, against the wishes of 70% of the population that voted in a referendum to keep the Union, in a bloody coup that killed over 2000 people fighting against its destruction. By the end of the 90s there had been 7-10 million excess deaths above the death rate of the 80s in Russia alone, making it one of the worst non-war human-caused humanitarian disasters of all time.
In short, the people of the USSR were revolutionaries and heroes, whereas you are a grotty little chauvinist from the imperial core who doesn't want to improve the world, because if you did you would want to win, and if you wanted to win you would read history, and if you read history you would come to the same conclusion.
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It was literally the fastest growing economic system of all time.
Yeah... I think Marxism-Leninism is the only ideology that dictates that you do colonialism against yourself.
first interplanetary civilization.
Lol! Been overdoing the sci-fi a bit, tankie?
the bravest and most committed communists
Just to clarify... you are not talking about the ones murdered on Stalin's orders, right?
against the wishes of 70% of the population
Stop fooling yourself, tankie - the fact that a large majority of the Soviet population saw no need to dismember the Union doesn't mean they also wanted your faux-socialism.
In short, the people of the USSR were revolutionaries and heroes
Oh, really? So where did those liberals come from, then?
because if you did you would want to win
You mean... unlike you?
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Motherfucker okay this is where I get heated.
Yeah... I think Marxism-Leninism is the only ideology that dictates that you do colonialism against yourself.
You have never read any anti-colonial theory in your life and it shows. Fucking cracker "anarchists" I swear to god.
first interplanetary civilization.
Lol! Been overdoing the sci-fi a bit, tankie?
Yes the USSR was the first country to land a probe on a moon that wasn't ours.
Just to clarify... you are not talking about the ones murdered on Stalin's orders, right?
Source?
that still means that 70% were in favor of maintaining the USSR.Stop fooling yourself, tankie - the fact that a large majority of the Soviet population saw no need to dismember the Union doesn't mean they also wanted your faux-socialism.
Oh, really? So where did those liberals come from, then?
Counterrevolutionaries will be something we have to contend with until we abolish capitalism globally.
You mean... unlike you?
You want to lose?
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Motherfucker okay this is where I get heated.
Oh, look at the tankie puffing themselves up in an attempt to be intimidating.
Lol... puff to your heart's content.
You have never read any anti-colonial
Oh look... a tankie that wants to play political tourist here in the extraction zone.
Yawn.
Yes the USSR was the first country
So that qualifies as an "interplanetary civilisation," correct?
Source?
Tell me tankie... what was the fate of Konstantin Chelpan - you know, the lead designer of the team of engineers that created the V2 diesel engine? I assume a tankie like you would know what a T-34 is, right?
that still means that 70% were in favor of maintaining the USSR.
I hate having to repeat myself, but you tankies are quite hard of hearing, soooo... the fact that a large majority of the Soviet population saw no need to dismember the Union doesn’t mean they also wanted your faux-socialism.
Counterrevolutionaries will be something we have to contend
True. You are still here, after all.
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It's colonialism when you teach peasants how to read and give them telegraph poles and combine harvesters. You are a fucking stupid historically illiterate imperial core roleplayer piece of shit, the USSR was the first anticolonial nation in history, they fought on the morally correct side of nearly every anticolonial struggle in the world in the 20th century. As just even a single example, in 1961, the USSR used its veto powers in the UN to stop a forced ceasefire, allowing the Indians to invade and liberate the Portugese-held island of Goa, literally kicking out colonialists.
But it's interesting that you seem to agree with the representative of Portugal that the USSR has 'shamed the whole of mankind'.
The USSR created the first artifical satellite, put the first man in space, put the first woman in space, conducted the first spacewalk, landed the first spacecraft on the moon, landed the first spacecraft on another planet (Venus), built the first space station and landed the first spacecraft on Mars. The first black man in space was an Afro-Cuban man who went on in a Soviet rocket. Eight of the first ten nationalities in space were from the 'eastern block'. 'Astronaut Barbie' was released by Mattel two years after the first Soviet woman went to space, and twenty years BEFORE the first US woman would.
Anyway I'm tired of reading your overwrought self-righteous self-important reddit liberal style of argumentation, all form and no substance, so just feel free to go read a book (assuming that's something you're actually capable of) and argue with that instead.
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It’s colonialism when you teach peasants
Are we talking about the peasants who democratically rejected your bolshevik clergy over and over again through the soviets back in 1919? Those peasants?
You are a fucking stupid historically illiterate imperial core roleplayer
Oh, look... a reactionary cosplaying as a leftst is calling others "imperialist."
Yawn, tankie.
USSR was the first anticolonial nation
LOOOL! Tell it to the Finns, the Ukrainians and the Poles, tankie. I can almost hear their laughter all the way from over here.
the USSR used its veto powers
And the US used it's military power to end Imperial Japan - I guess that makes the US "anit-colonial" now, too?
The USSR created the first artifical satellite, put the first man in space, put the first woman in space,
And? Are you perhaps suffering from some kind of insecurity, tankie?
so just feel free to go read a book
Which one, tankie? This one?
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Disengage
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the only good revolution is the one that fails
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Imagine equating a state and related movements that massively improved working-class people's lives, including in terms of life expectancy, literacy rates, including by providing guaranteed housing, universal healthcare, fundamental women's rights that are taken for granted today, and which not only fought off settler-colonialism in the form of the Lebensraum and the Holocaust, but also helped many other countries liberate themselves from European powers, with things like Germany under NSDAP, the US, Pissrael, and NATO in general.
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lol we murdered all the people who were doing that, so it's not valid.
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people like me killed people like you, therefore im right
So...
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Well at least communism has consistently survived contact with the real world.
Oh, wait.
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Well no, see, those dont count, because reasons.
Maybe if you weren't a complete tool if the capitalist, you would understand this, but i cannot explain. Because it's secret to people who paid attention through all of 'capital'. Which you didn't or obviously you'd agree with me and there would be no need to explain.
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Yep, it had enemies.
Yeah... the main one being the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
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This is so disgustingly wrong it actually pisses me off. Our enemies were fascists and imperialists for the most part. Fuck dude Lenin even aided Makhno.
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The commenters on that site use Pol Pot as an example lmao. I cannot take them seriously.
Also this drivel.
do you have a link? were the "less authoritarian" factions under the libertarian socialist umbrella? if we just listed every massacre or genocide by marxists, we'd be here all day.
Anarchism is a branch of communist thought, socialism is a branch of communist thought, "libertarian" was a rebranding of anarchism originally in places where it was made illegal to disseminate anarchist literature and speak of anarchist philosophy. So libertarian socialist is an oxy-moron and no less contradictory than American modern Libertarians who simply want corporations to supplant the state.
Like it or not we have to take a diversity of tactics to build duel power and engage in a prolonged defensive war against the forces of reaction and that means aligning with others whose ultimate goal is communism. This goes doubly so within the imperial core. Weakening the core takes pressure off of besieged socialist movements in the periphery, and support for anti-imperialist forces against the west makes the empire less capable of repression at home having to exert force on more and more fronts.
Actual anarchists are teaming up with people of all sorts of tendencies and groups like Palestine Action are quite diverse. The people doing the most effective below ground action aren't arguing about 100 year old mistakes and ideological hangups, they are learning together from them and doing what needs to be done.
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This is so disgustingly wrong it actually pisses me off.
What are you going to do about it, tankie?
Our enemies
There is no "our" here, tankie - you are the enemy here.
Lenin even aided Makhno.
Really? Is that why the Bolsheviks perpetrated mass-slaughter in Ukraine to repress the Makhnovists? To "aid" them?
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Authoritarian leftists and marxist lenninists are not leftists.
Never were. Never will be.
- Belief that someone relinquishes power after seizing it is just childish, at best. Borderline moronic given the historic evidence.
- If you like authoritarian assholes in power, one that purges the ranks, seizes power and gets control of the eeconomy. All for the good of people. That is Fascism. Capital F. Get. Fucking. Real.
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- The whithering of the state is not "relinquishing power." The state, for Marxists, is made up of the elements of society that perform class oppression. It isn't administration, nor is the state a unique class. Once all property is collectivized, concepts like special bodies of armed people to uphold class oppression have no need to exist, as class doesn't exist and doesn't have class contradictions. There's no "abolish the state" button, it simply has no use when you have a fully collectivized and planned economy.
- No. A democratic state that oppresses the bourgeoisie and uplifts the proletariat is not fascism. Read Blackshirts and Reds.
Marxists are absolutely leftists, if your definition of leftism is exclusionary towards Marxists and only accepts anarchists, then you're being deeply unserious.
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Dont care
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So you have no clue what the Marxist position is, no clue what fascism is, and don't care to learn either, yet are comfortable left-punching? Deeply unserious behavior.
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Dont care
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... You don't get it?
This is an Anarchist instance.
Anarchists are extremely critical of the concept of 'the State' itself, tend to want to either totally abolish it, or at least strip it down so much or break it apart that it essentially isn't a 'State' any more.
Tankies embrace, and essentially worship the State.
... Also, in basically every single recorded instance of a succesful or attempted leftist revolution in modern human history, tankies ally with anarchists to overthrow the existing State, and then murder all of them after they've established themselves as the new State or proto-State.
One could argue that it seems to be in the material interest of authoritarian statists to extend false allyship to 'fellow leftists', and then betray them as quickly as they abandon their ideal of a 'classless society' and begin to assert themselves as the new ruling class.
There's a 101 level answer for your 'why so antagonistic' question.
Tankies historically cry 'Unity! Unity!' and do exactly what you are doing, trying to shame those who are skeptical... and then the rhetoric flips on a dime and the cry switches to 'Purity! Faith!'
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Also worth noting is your framing of this as antagonistic in the first place.
I guess you find the evidence of history thus far to largely be antagonistic to your worldview?
I don't know, I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth, but that is my assumption.
I could be wrong though.
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The way you liberals need to define ideologies the US government taught you to hate as "religions" is pretty interesting to me.
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I've studied economics and poli sci academically, have degrees in both, did my own independent research, came to the conclusion that the anarchist perspective is ultimately the most useful approach to analyze and critique... all societies, throughout all history, with the least ideological blindspots, with the most at least broadly accurate predictive power.
But sure, ok, I am one of the liberals whom I frequently argued against and critqued, ok.
Anyways, do you have an actual retort, or just a form of ideologically flavored ad hominem?
-yawn-
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My wife also has advanced degrees in economics, she's a senior economist professionally and has also studied world history indepth. She disagrees with your assessment and thinks a vanguard and a socialist state are necessary intermediaries to get any kind of lasting libertarian anarchism.
I could easily find 100+ economists with better credentials who disagree with both you and my wife so what's the point of jerking off your qualifications? If you have something persuasive to say just say it; vaguely telling us why you're qualified is weak as hell. Why don't you post your resume or link to any of the books you've published if you're such an expert?
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Your wife sounds like she'd be potentially interesting to talk to then, genuinely.
But uh, I wasn't 'flashing my credentials' to assert authority by way of the number of fancy pieces of paper I have.
I was responding to the charge of having been 'brainwashed' by the US government, and mentioned my academic pursuits to hopefully be able to indicate that I have spent an inordinate and uncommon amount of time and effort attempting to do my own research and learn more.
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I don't have anything that I think would be persuasive to say, in general, to an ML Vanguardist.
Mostly because they tend to be very, very ideologically inflexible.
Again, I was responding to a single general concept with that section of what I wrote:
The idea that an ML/Tankie does not understand why Anarchists are skeptical of left-unity.
Apparently my error was to assume that the person I was responding to was... being serious, actually expressing that idea in good faith, earnestly.
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I will not be posting my resume or any PII as I value my privacy here on lemmy.
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You're so very hostile and demanding of people you claim are or should be your allies...
...almost as if we have a fundamentally, radically distinct approach to basic human to human communication, to say nothing of how to grow a mass political movement.
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So just to be clear, you're the only free thinker and everyone who doesn't agree with you is a mindless sheep blindly following their ideology as a religion?
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Am I the only free thinker?
No, of course not?
Do all tankie/MLs engage in what could otherwise be an actually productive and insightful conversation with the absolutely most badfaith and toxic rhetoric that is humanly possible, immedeately, right out of the gate, like rabid cult members defending their beliefs?
In my experience, not 100% of the time, but 95% of the time, yes.
So I guess thanks to you that 95% is getting closer to rounding over to 96%.
You got anything other than an ad hom?
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In constantly calling all your interlocutors cultists, you're making it pretty hard to see anyone else as the bad faith adhom abusers here
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In constantly calling all your interlocutors cultists,
Pot calling the kettle black, holy shit that's hilarious.
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"not everyone, just almost everyone" isn't the gotcha you think it is.
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just a form of ideologically flavored ad hominem?
Ridiculous statement for someone who incessantly calls the most predominant socialist tendency on earth a "religion."
Edit: also lmao poli sci and economics degree
"Excuse me, the only real socialists are people with professional level liberal ideological education"
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You claimed I was brainwashed by the government, I told you I wasn't.
Your response is 'Ridiculous!' and then a strawman.
... this is evidently your strategy for fostering left-unity, to just attempt to rhetorically insult me until I submit to your way of thinking?
You 'argue' like a power tripping narcissist sociopath, it is actually funny to me that you seemingly lack awareness of how vindictive and manipulative you come across.
I guess the only good revolution is the one that is openly antagonistic to tbose whom it claims to represent, speak for, advocate for with unity.
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I'm not trying to foster left unity with you, because frankly to consider you an anarchist would be such rank anti-anarchist sectarianism that Hexbear mods would be correct to permaban me. You're a liberal.
Btw, I think that accusing anarcho-communists of having an ideology that inevitably leads to ecocide is pretty sectarian also (or again, maybe not sectarian. It's not sectarian for a liberal [you] to be anti-anarchist, just shitty), and you haven't engaged with this point but you're posting ziq's articles and this is one of their states positions so that's something you need to deal with for yourself.
You called Marxism a religion before my comment, which was about your initial ad hominem comparison to religion, and frankly suggesting that the ideologies that you are opposed to are the ones the US government wants you to oppose is an objective fact.
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posting ziq's articles
LMAO holy shit what a toolbag
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Ah yes, the evidence of history. Like all the successful anarchist revolutions?
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I am not aware of any anarchists that even predict that some kind of anarchist revolution is any kind of inevitable.
And if there were some, I would disagree with them.
I am not purpoting to have some kind of perfect plan to 'achieve anarchism'.
I don't need to.
It's ya'll that tend to have a dogmatic, ideological faith in a perfect way to do things, that things should be done, that things inevitably will be done.
...
Anyway, the evidence of history I am referring to is that basically all self described 'Communist' states/societies haven't ever really come close to Marx's utopian conception of a classless society at the proverbial 'end' of Communism...
They mostly either reform or transform themselves into a highly state-managed form of capitalism, or into something with less overt direct state control over a hybrid state/capitalist economy, allowing private businesses and capitalists to operate under fairly significant levels of regulation...
Both of those will almost always only ever allow a single political party, clamp down on freedom of political association/expression, speech, etc... these societies very much still do have significant wealth disparity, ergo, social classes.
...
And those're pretty much the best case scenarios.
They can also just collapse into... well basically, roughly fascism; a totalitarian, nationalistic, jingoistic central state that works with, grants favors to various capitalist oligarchs, corporations, as opposed to directly managing them or heavily regulating them...
In these societies, wealth disparity and thus class disparity tends to be even more significant... and they tend to put on a show of pretending to be liberal and democratic, though the extent of that effort ebbs and flows back toward social and governmental illiberalism over time.
It can get worse than that, but then we tend to get into 'thats not real communism' or basically just meme/schrodinger's irony level argument territory, at least in my prior experience or discussions with tankies.
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I don't have a problem admitting that no anarchist revolution has succeeded in making a stable anarchist society at the scope and scale of a nation-state, with some kind of ... assumed authoritative forceful control over a defined physical region.
Partially because... that isn't really what at least I personally view as any kind of useful goal of my idea of anarchism.
...
If you doubt the history of tankies back stabbing anarchists... hold please, will update with source.
EDIT:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-tankies-and-the-left-unity-scam
There it is!
No sense in me retyping all of this myself.
EDIT 2:
Or maybe its this one:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/various-authors-always-against-the-tanks/
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This person's works also include Burn the Bread Book, an anti-Anarcho-Communist screed in which they advocate for the end of civilization, and return to each person producing all their own food, an idea that is openly ecofascist and would kill billions, first and foremost a large number of disabled and chronically ill people.
I think you should carefully consider where your ideas are coming from.
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People can can have some ideas or writings that are good, and some ideas or writings that are bad.
Other people can use their own brains to pick through those ideas on their own and formulate their own worldviews.
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Which other genocidal anti-communist, anti-anarchist authors do you suggest have "some good ideas?"
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imagine being a redfash and tarnishing someone else as a "genocidal anti-anarchist"
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You're just going to take what this redfash says at face value without reading the text yourself, and worse, repeat their smear?
It's not a pro-genocide argument, it's the direct opposite of that.
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Marx's utopian conception of a classless society
Tell me you don't understand Marx without telling me you don't understand Marx
Edit: LMFAO YOU CITED ZIQ BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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but then we tend to get into 'thats not real communism' or basically just meme/schrodinger's irony level argument territory
That was fast!
Sorry, I was trying to specifically use Lenin's conception/phrasing of "socialism" as the progressive process that builds society toward the idealized, but possibly not ever truly, perfectly achievable "communism".
Thats what I get for trying to use ML terms with an ML, I suppose.
So anyway, if a classless society is not the ultimate end goal of Marx, of Marxism... what would you describe the end goal of Marxism as?
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You don't think perhaps it was the word "utopian," a word which in the discussion of various different socialist tendencies generally refers to the Utopian Socialists, a group that Marx vocally criticized?
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(Which anyone with a decent understanding of Marx would know, and therefore avoid using the word in a description of Marxist goals.)
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Does it ever occur to you that mandating a mastery of an esoteric vocabulary and history as the first step toward being elligible for 'left-unity'... is not exactly appealing to, or a reasonable expectation for prospective new members of such a 'left-unity' broad social movement?
Are you trying to be an elitist clique, or a movement that broadly represents large masses of poor, tired, busy, overworked, poorly educated people?
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So you also don't know what "esoteric" means? Interesting.
-an anarchist btw
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I would expect someone trying to criticize something to have the most basic familiarity with it, yes.
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You've been talking down to me this entire time and you claim to have degrees in both economics and political science, and you're now complaining that I'm being elitist for pointing out that you're not actually familiar with my ideology in any depth?
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Oof yeah, words can have multiple meanings in different contexts and change over time as well.
I meant it in the more common lingo that normal people mean by the word utopian, an idealized human society that is the best for all its members of any possible society.
Sorry, I don't spend that much time getting into online arguments with MLs and Socialism Understanders these days, as they tend to be so very, very pedantic and unproductive.
See how you almost got me to not notice you didn't even attempt to answer my most pertinent question?
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Thats what I get for trying to use ML terms with an ML, I suppose.
Two faced dishonest hypocrite.
Note: this isn't an ad hominem because I'm not trying to dismiss an idea here, just point out that you're a contemptible person
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Ukraine for example, before the "allied" communists betrayed and hunted down the anarchists
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Look, I'm not trying to justify everything the Bolsheviks did during the Russian Civil War. I don't know enough of the history to make a judgment call on most of that stuff. So I'm going to leave the question of morality entirely aside on this one.
But I don't think you can call your revolution successful if, within a few years, some external force is able to show up, wreck everything you were doing, and take over. It's not enough to just temporarily wrest control away and set up your committees and your resource distribution system and declare victory. You have to establish long-term security and stability. If you don't, you haven't had a successful revolution.
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Valid point. I'd say that it's inevitable for a large force with popular legitimacy and support to best a force with a similar percentage of but less-due-to-geographical-resources popular legitimacy and support, but I see arguing that would be moving the goalposts. So to engage that directly I would say that the AANES (Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, commonly known as Rojava) is as anarchist as the USSR was communist. It's been there for well over a decade now.
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I could quibble over the circumstances (and, unfortunately, likely outcomes in the near future), or argue about your dig at the USSR, but honestly I'm more inclined to cede the point on this. I don't really have anything against anarchists or anarchism; I was mostly just giving a flippant answer to that other commenter, who was being a smug jerk.
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Because people need to be reminded of the lessons anarchists learned the hard way to prevent another Spain, Ukraine and even Russia.
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The anarchist understanding of Spain is so weird.
No surprises there... anything that isn't tankie propaganda seems "weird" to tankies.
The May Days specifically started when anarchists were fucking around with government telephone calls
Prove it.
the communist just had solidarity with the Republican government and its war effort.
Really? Is that why all Spain's gold reserves (the third largest in the world at the time) ended up in Moscow?
Tankies have a weird understanding of the term "solidarity."
I’m not saying ...
I'm not saying that the only reason Barcelona didn't fall to the fascists right at the start of the war was because of the anarchists... oh, wait - that's exactly what I'm saying.
I'm not saying that anarchist plans to turn Barcelona into a death trap for the fascists was quashed by the cowardly Negrin-regime (the very same Negrin that helped Stalin steal all of Spain's gold reserves)... oh, wait - that's exactly what I'm saying.
Come, tankie... let's see how well your faux-history holds up.
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reads a history book
Oh I see, they're called 'tankies' because the USSR gave 731 tanks to the Republicans, being the only nation to provide them any material support
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Oh I see, they’re called ‘tankies’
What would you prefer we call you? Considering that the Bolsheviks managed the greatest single gold heist of the 20th century (from a nation being invaded by fascists, of course), would you prefer we call you "Goldies?"
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Me when I'm an anarchist who cares about state gold reserves.
Anyway, it was payment for the
- 242 aircraft,
- 703 pieces of artillery,
- 731 tanks,
- 1,386 trucks,
- 300 armored cars
- 15,000 heavy machine guns,
- 500,000 rifles,
- 30,000 sub-machine guns,
- 4,000,000 artillery shells,
- 1,000,000,000 machine gun cartridges,
- over 69,000 tons of war material, and
- over 29,000 tons of ammunition
That the USSR provided. Should they have given it for free? Should they have not given support at all? Would it have been better for the Republicans to just accept they were going to lose anyway and die with their gold? Would you prefer that gold to have been captured by the Fascists?
Besides, the actual greatest gold heist of the century was during Indian independence, when their entire gold reserves were airlifted to the UK in exchange for... nothing. Which I'm sure you knew about, having devoted a proportional amount of your time to looking into the actual crimes of capitalist nations as you have the fictional crimes of socialist ones.
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Me when I’m an anarchist who cares about state gold reserves.
I don't care much for gold... but it seems to be one of the few things you tankies actually do care about.
But hey, tankie... good news! Now at least we know that there are at least two reasons tankies would actually bother to fight fascists at all, eh?
Anyway, it was payment for the
That is all the third largest gold reserve in the world at the time paid for? Just that measly amount of "aid?"
The Soviet Union got 7,411 aircraft from the western allies during WW2 - was Tankie Nr.3 forced to ship all his gold reserves to Washington DC, perhaps?
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You were the only person to bring up gold…
Did I, tankie?
Seems your glorious Tankie Nr.3 brought it up quite a few years ago...
"According to Orlov, Joseph Stalin celebrated the arrival of the gold with a banquet attended by members of the politburo, in which he was famously quoted as saying, "The Spaniards will never see their gold again, just as they don't see their ears," an expression based on a Russian proverb."
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On: “the May Days specifically started when anarchists were fucking around with government telephone calls”
Horseshit, tankie.
"The news of the attack spread rapidly. Informed of what had taken place, the Regional Committee of the CNT called the Ministry of Internal Security on the telephone and demanded an explanation. Who gave the order to occupy the building? It did not come from the Council of the Generalitat, which had never deliberated such an action. After further inquiries, the Councilor of Internal Security, the republican Ayguadé, said he did not know anything about it. In fact, the order to occupy the building that Rodríguez Sala had presented bore his signature…."
Revolution and Counterrevolution in Catalonia – Carlos Semprún Maura
Seems like Azaña's (alleged) "interrupted phone call" didn't bother Azana enough to declare war on the anarchists - if such an event ever ocurred at all.
My understanding was that the Republic voluntarily
Right, right... the Republic decided democratically to give all it's gold reserves to one of the most untrustworthy realpolitickers of the 20th century, eh? You tankies have a weird understanding of the term "voluntary," too.
They were the only power to support the Republican effort.
Support it or hijack it? Can you tankies actually tell the difference?
Yeah, I absolutely think the Republic
Yeah, I absolutely think the Republic would have stood a better chance if the liberals holding hands with tankies were more interested in fighting the fascists than sabotaging the anarchists.
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Disengage
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I don't want to be seen as conceding the point when I'm not in the mood to argue with tankies.
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Spain?
Was the lesson that they stop doing literally what you're doing here?
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Disengage
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Sure thing. I encourage others seeing this to read this article, on the guardian of all places, however.
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