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You know i really hope you are right. Maybe my mind has been infiltrated by the zionist agenda and propaganda media of which they supposedly own worldwide. But saying that they are causing their own fear seems a bit like a stretch. It's touching the "It didnt happend, and if it did, its not that bad" to "its your own fault". Jews in other countries are not part of the "zionist agenda" and claiming they are self alarming is really twisting words. There is a long and wide spread history in europe of antisemitism and even if you don't see it maybe you'll acknowledge that all minorities are subject to hate where jews are in a fragile position as they are few - along with israeli government doing what it does. The Porto synagogue was vandalized right after the october event along with the Jewish Cultural Center among other events. Maybe that is also manifactured by die judischen zeitungen. It's a bit of a Catch-22, where you don't think that Jews are in any danger whatsoever but when reading about it, statistics and newspapers are lying so even if they would be persecuted you would never know.
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That's a curious take when I've repeatedly reiterated that there is anti-semitism and even pointed some of those who tends to to do it.
What I'm disputing is the level of alarmism about it.
Jews in Europe are victims of prejudice, at times even racial hate from people not in positions of authority (almost always in the form of anti-semitic insults, but also as you point out crimes against Jewish Community property). They are however in not in significant more danger for their lives than the locals, are almost never targets of violence and are treated fairly and taken seriously by the local authorities.
(That said, I do vaguely remember in the last couple of years an instance of actual violent attack on Jews in Europe, so Jewish People are in higher danger than the locals, not with high probability but none the less at higher levels)
There absolutely still is a problem, just nowhere at the levels that we have once seen and far less than for other minorities, mainly because nowadays it's only the powerless that might target Jews, not the powerful.
For Historical reasons there seems to definitely and understandably be a higher sensitivity amongst the Jewish Community to displays of prejudice, which partly explains the higher state of alarm when faced with prejudice of any kind (which also translates into more prompt reporting of those instances to the authorities, perversely enhancing the alarmism because what's reported is what gets reflected in the official figures) compared to how other minorities feel and react even when faced with a lot more prejudice (and those will report less, especially since the authorities themselves discriminate against them, hence the official figures for them is lower than reality), and given that Jews, just like everybody else, "find it difficult to acknowledge that people with other backgrounds are subject to hate", many will have a perception of victimhood wholly decontextualized from the broader phenomenon of prejudice and racial hate in the countries they live in.
All of this is of curse actively cultivated by a country ruled by an ethno-Fascist regime which claims to represent that specific ethnicity, since it's pretty standard in the Fascist playbook to claim both strength and being a victim, and specifically ethno-Fascist regimes enhance their claims of representing a ethnicity if the people of that ethnicity gather around that regime.
All this said, I can understand that the rise of the Far-Right in Europe is scary for Jews here, because the Far-Right in Europe have historically tended to be rabid anti-semites. So far the Far-Right being anti-semitic only seems to be the case in some countries (they're mostly against immigrants), but that fear amongst the Jewish Community is none the less justified.
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Maybe we need a different approach. As you don't trust the numbers like i presented before where antisemitic hate crime reporting is 10-20 times as high as islamophobic hate crime reporting, what is a sufficient, or acceptable matrix that you would trust? I'm sure we can find out something we can both agree on. I'm prepared to accept whatever result, maybe i'm full of it but if there is no metric that you accept, there doesn't seem to be any reason to debate in good faith.
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I don't trust British numbers because I lived in the damn place and claims of anti-semitism there have been politically weaponized and heavily so - when the rules are such that a Jewish Holocaust Survivor (!!!) gets deemed an anti-semite for criticizing Israel, you know the whole thing is bollocks.
I've already went through all the reasons why the anti-semitic label has lost much of its meaning and hence the numbers for "anti-semitic" racial hate are muddied beyond salvation and why "perception" numbers (which is what you provided) are even easier to shift with Propaganda, and that what you claim doesn't match what I heard over the years of reported experience of actual Jewish People or even what I see pop up in the small progessive leftwing part I'm involved in which is heavily into fighting against racism (and such things definitely pop-up for some other ethnic groups), so won't go into that (again). In fact I literally just deleted a large block I wrote about it :/
The issue is that you've persisted in using flawed metrics to prove your point that "Jews are not safe to live anywhere else".
How about this: show me proof that the number of violent deaths per capita of Jewish People in any European country are actually higher than for the whole population.
"Violent deaths" is a pretty concrete metric that goes straight to show insecurity. Unlike perception of racial hate, death counts cannot be influenced by propaganda and it's pretty hard to over or under report violent deaths (at least in Europe, were the Authorities keep a tight eye on people suddenly appearing dead). The number of violent deaths is also strongly positively correlated with violence in general so the former count should be a pretty good indicator of broader insecurity.
If Jews are dying to violence in Europe more than other people then there is no doubt whatsoever that they are less safe.
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Can i count attempted homicide? The problem with violent death in europe is that it's quite skewed by terrorist attacks, like in france 2015, 31 were "homecide or attempt" but it doesnt split that statistic into two columns which it should i.m.o, and also most countries don't seem to register anti semitic killing seprately (maybe some because there were none/few?) Are violent attacks not a valid reason to be afraid for your safety? That looks easier to look up as many countries does register that statistic.
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Assuming that "attempted homicide" is determined by an external 3rd party, I expect it not to be skewed by the victim's own perceptions or beliefs so it makes sense to also consider attempted homicide when you can't separate it from homicide.
Also keep in mind that you're not supposed to be looking specifically for murders deemed "anti-semitic killing", just killings in general of any person, per-capita and killings of people who are Jewish in relation to the number of Jewish people in that country, independently of the motive having been determined as being anti-semitism.
Going after murders specifically labelled as anti-semitic would just be getting us back to the problem of the legal classification of anti-semitism - in other words, countries with a broader definition of anti-semitism (such as the ones deeming criticism of Israel as being anti-semitism) having a bias would be more likely to label as "anti-semitic" murders of Jewish people which were not in fact committed due to the ethnicity of the victim, than other countries. Further, only looking at murders for which the motive had been determined would reduce the total of cases considered to just those murders which were successfully prosecuted (which depending on the country can be quite a low fraction of the total), since (I believe) a death can be officially counted as a murder purely based on the autopsy even if the killer has not been found, tried and convicted and his or her motive confirmed during a trial. Also the "how serious are the authorities at investigating a murder depending on the ethnicity of the victim" factor might skew the results if you're limiting your numbers to tried and convicted cases. (Whilst not so in life, we're all equal in death and a corpse is a corpse, so I expect that a coroner's determination after examining a corpse that the person was killed should independent of the ethnicity of the victim).
By just looking at all murders without looking at anything else but the ethnicity of the victim, my expectation is that anti-semitic murders will appear in the numbers as more Jewish people getting murdered as a proportion of all Jewish people than the rate for the overall population - with this method any judgment passed saying the motivation of the murder is not at all examined, hence any possible "inflation" in the use of the "anti-semitic" classification makes no difference whatsoever for the results, and equally any bias the authorities might have in terms of how much resources they dedicate to investigating a murder depending on the victim's ethnicity does not impact the numbers since they're based on the coroner's determination alone.
If in aggregate Jews are getting killed more often than the population in general, the obvious conclusion is that the excess of Jewish people being victims of murder above the general population is because of them being killed due to their ethnicity, which would confirm your point that Jewish people are less safe than the rest (not merely feel less safe, which you already proved and I never disputed, but objectively are less safe).
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I honestly think that might be a pretty bad metric because most murders belong to three categories.
- Gangrelated
- Domestic
- Spontaneous (often psychological problems/alcohol-drugs involved).
For 2 and 3, i don't believe any ethnicity is exempt.
All that statistic will show is that it's far more dangerous to be a criminal wifebeating drunk than the average population and i haven't heard of many jew-gangs.
Example- a gang fight causes 100 people to die. One jew is killed from an antisemitic crime. Now, if the jewish population is 1% of the total population, we would have an equal amount of jewish deaths as the average population, but criminals mostly kill eachother so it's still obviously more dangerous to be a criminal than a jew but the antisemitic crime weighs more compared to the non-criminal population. So we would have to exclude a whole bunch of murder causes to get a reasonable result and define those, or you know, just use the antisemitic deaths as a factor from the start.
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Were did you get a that list of categories for most murders which doesn't have non-gang-related crime? Because most crime doesn't involve gangs.
Are you classifying all organised crime as being gangs (i.e. classifying the Mafia as a "gang") and all non-gang related but crime related murder under "spontaneous"? Because that's the only way you'll end up with with that list of top categories for murders and in that case since those "gangs" aren't just bands of teenagers from poor backgrounds, I'm pretty sure there are Jewish people in "gangs".
Further, your entire point rests on the assumption that Jews are less likely to be involved in or with violent criminals than other people - in other words that Jews are different from other people in something which is unrelated to one's religion, which is pretty straightforward racial prejudice and easily disproven by there being Jews committing crimes, including murder, in Israel (in fact if there is once thing the Genocide in Gaza proves beyond doubt is that some Jews have the capacity of the most horrific behavior - same as everybody else).
Without that prejudiced assumption, then as Jews are equally involved in crime as everybody else the fraction of Jews that end up dead due to that should be the same as everybody else and thus have equal impact on both the rate of Jews being victims of murder and that of the general population, leaving us once again with only anti-semitic violence to explain any higher rate of Jews being murdered.
Frankly, the only thing that I would expect would impact the number to yield a lower rate of Jewish victims of murder compared to the broader population would be that in Europe Jews tend to be Middle Class or above - mainly because they're well established, compared with for example immigrants from poorer countries - and the probability of being murdered is affected by one's social status (basically poorer people tend to be murdered more than middle-class people) and even then, if Jews in Europe tend to die less than average because they're well established and prosperous, that de facto means they're safe in Europe (certainly safer than the average person), which disproves your original statement - my whole point has always been that Jews can in fact be safe elsewhere than Israel, not that anti-semitism does not exist.
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Being a criminal is also affected by ones social status so you're pretty much contradicting youself here. I know what gang-related crime looks like as i was raised in a suburb with majority mena-immigrants along with having worked as a correctional officer to pay for my living situation while studying for my university degree. Jews were not part of that culture, because frankly they were quite hated in those parts of society. My statistics from the crime-prehentetive counsil in sweden mentions that it amounts for about a third of violent deaths, while the larger part of the rest is the second and third category. It might be lower in some areas in europe like portugal and maybe portugal don't have many killed jews at all. I don't agree with the metric because you can still be unsafe even if your life is not on the line consistently, but you might still be approached on the street, assaulted and fear terrorist attacks, which definitely have happened. Perhaps that is where our points of view differ to much to come to a common conclusion.
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A few points:
- Keep in mind that being a criminal and being a victim of crime are not at all the same thing. To ascertain the safety of Jews in Europe being victims of violent crime is all that needs to be measured, quite independently of how many of them are criminals themselves.
- Yeah, I openly admitted that social status changes ones likelihood of being a victim of crime (because it does and it was only fair to mention it since it might skew your results against the point you were making), and that has to do with living environments with high criminality even if not a criminal oneself: people from poor backgrounds are simply more likely to be victims of crime (the strong tend to prey on the weak).
- You're way over-extrapolating from your own experience, understandable since living in the environment that you describe would have left an indelible mark on a teenager and young adult. The situation you describe in Sweden is quiet different from, for example, The Netherlands or Italy were Organised Crime is far bigger and more dangerous than mere gang crime, and then again they're all different from Portugal were there is very little in the way of murders other than the so-called "crimes of passion" (I doubt any Jew has been murderer in Portugal in decades, probably more than a century, purely because they're such a small fraction of the population in a country which in terms of violent crime is the 4th safest in the World, so using Portugal for those numbers I asked from you would've yielded Statistically invalid results).
All of it is none the less irrelevant because, if Jews in Europe are dying at lesser rates than the rest of the population, no matter what the reason, they are de facto safe to live in Europe which disproves your statement that Jews are not safe to live anywhere [but Israel]. In the big maths of safety what counts is in how much danger one is, not the reason for that danger.
(Large amounts of anti-semitist violence would none the less in those number more than offset the safety enhancing factors for Jews in Europe such as, due to being well established, tending to be Middle class and hence safer than working class and poor people, whilst small amounts of anti-semitist violent would be hidden in the death toll by those other safety enhancing factors. The point is that the levels of anti-semitic violence - which I have no doubt exist in many if not most countries in Europe especially with large mena immigrant communities since those amongst them who are Racists will confuse Jews with Israel and blame the former as a group for the actions of the latter - seem to be very low and hence not enough to make Jews be less safe than the rest of the population).
In your last couple of posts you seem to have been trying to come up with excuses, so I can only conclude that the numbers you managed to gather following my suggestion of a, IMHO, reasonably independent metric do not show a higher rate of Jewish deaths than the rest of the population. None the less, your mind is set, understandable given the story you just shared of your experience as a Jew in Sweden of growing up in a neighborhood of mostly Middle Eastern and Northern African immigrants as my mind is set because I have only ever known Jews from Middle-class backgrounds in the countries I lived in, whose experiences were very different from yours and hence whose safety was far less at risk than yours seems to have been, plus as I said in those same countries I've had friends from many origins whose experiences were worse (in some cases far worse) than the experiences of my Jewish friends.
Lets agree to disagree, and I thank you for engaging with me on this in good faith.
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I appreciated your well articulated responses. I was merely in my last posts trying to find something measureable and a definition of safe we can both agree on but as you say, lets agree to disagree. Lets hope everyone keeps safe in these times. Best of luck to you.
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