Phoronix: Linus Torvalds Comments On The Russian Linux Maintainers Being Delisted

Yes, the sanctions against Russia, as mentioned by Linus. The change also said the maintainers "can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided".

My guess is that the Linux Foundation must ensure that none of the people they work with are in any way associated with any organisation, person or activity on the sanctions list. And that they preemptively removed all maintainers that might risk violating the sanctions while they work with them to establish whether they might be covered by the sanctions or not.

Regardless of what you or they think of the sanctions, they are the law, and I don't think anyone wants the Linux Foundation to have to spend their money on lawyers and fines because they had a maintainer who also worked on a research project funded by a sanctioned entity. (If that is how it works, IANAL)

OK, that's the first reasonable explanation I've come across. I wish ~~Greg~~ Linus didn't reply in that kind of "angry" tone, because for some of us it's not that obvious.
Yeah, it seems like they genuinely are just trying to be compliant with the law. I do think the "anyone who has concerns about this is a Russian troll" thing is obnoxious though, knowing of the existence of sanctions doesn't mean we're all lawyers who know the requirements here for open source projects.
- The massive negative outcry over this fairly uninteresting change certainly seems oddly overblown, almost as if there are parties trying to turn it into a big political issue to paint Russia as a victim. But idk, nerds freak out over stuff all the time completely on their own.
  Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I think the Linux Foundation has a hard time being clear on the matter because it just isn't clear. These are new laws and a global open source cooperation run by a non-profit is likely a corner case that the lawmakers did not think about at all when making them.
  
  almost as if there are parties trying to turn it into a big political issue to paint Russia as a victim
  Idk, there's probably some of that but until today with the clarification that the bans are happening from a list of employers they're required not to work with, things were pretty unclear and I don't think it was unreasonable to assume they were going beyond what was required...especially with Linus' response being pretty tone deaf given the information critics had. People were angry what seemed like random Russian citizens were being targeted and Linus responded angrily as if we all already knew their employers were on a list despite it not being reported yet.
  It's not a huge deal but Linus is just not very good at handling this kind of thing. Nerds should have assumed there was more behind the scenes and given the benefit of the doubt, though.
Underrated comment.

Compliance with sanctions from the US and EU IIRC

Sanctions apply on OS development?
I dont know ennough on the topic, does this ecen check out?
- Yes they do. See the long-standing debate over the ban to export crypto algorithms to Iran.
- As they said in the article, they are just listening to their lawyers. I would assume those lawyers are correct.
  
  That's a generic fuck you, I don't need to explain myself.
  Which does make me question their reasoning even more tbh

Reuters reports:

Finland is experiencing suspicious acts of sabotage and disruption and believes Russia is engaged in broad-ranging influence operations against it and other European countries

Since Linus is Finnish, this literally hits home for him, hence (probably) his reaction.

Yes, but this action sounds as effective against Russian espionage as burning any clothes that has red blue and white in them.

Nobody has stated any actual reason. Based on Linus' comments, Russophobia is the likely answer.

Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I'd say that it's not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it's a definetly a concern.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn't a thing back then).
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can't be a part of kernel development team. There's of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.
Personally I've seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the "sanctions" (for a lack of better word) aren't overshooting anything, but they're instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn't unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.
In current global environment we're living in, I'd rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn't take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don't need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.
- Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
  I mean, if my country suffered through the Winter War, I'd consider that a very rational fear.
  I'm sure Jews are pretty nervous around German hyper-nationalists too.
- Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I'd say that it's not uncontrollable and very much not irrational.
  Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.
  When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn't a thing back then).
  This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.
  Though I don't see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?
  Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can't be a part of kernel development team.
  To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I'd a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.
  Personally I've seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the "sanctions" (for a lack of better word) aren't overshooting anything, but they're instead leveling the playing field.
  Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.
  Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
  That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.
  
  Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia.
  Ok, seems logical so far.
  Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: "Don't brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass."?
  I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
  
  Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: "Don't brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass."?
  I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
  I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
  At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
  Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis,, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
  
  This country attacked me. Should I allow their enemies to reach them through my territory? Sure.
  "USSR correctly predicted this!"
  The timeline is fuwky wucky in your argument mate
  
  Ah yes, the famed "reluctant" Nazi collaborators that just had to help Nazis and build death camps to get revenge on the Russkies.
  I wonder why all of these liberals here keep making excuses for Nazis and Nazi collaborators.
  
  For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish "russian death camps" not in most of history textbooks?
  Also it's not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It's not like tribal collective punishment isn't engrained in our blood.
  Why do you even want to defend an empire?
  
  For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish "russian death camps" not in most of history textbooks?
  Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
  Also it's not unreasonable to hate the aggressor.
  Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
  So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It's not like tribal collective punishment isn't engrained in our blood.
  This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
  Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
  Why do you even want to defend an empire?
  What on earth are you talking about?
  
  Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
  Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won't argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
  Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis.
  That's the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
  This was not tribal
  The point is that tribal "us vs them" is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
  Why do you even want to defend an empire?
  What on earth are you talking about?
  False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you're defending the current day Russian state.
All it takes is reading the article to see why it was done. You clearly did not do that and instead inserted your own agenda.
- I did read the article and drew the conclusion I just stated. Feel free to offer your own take.
  
  While he certainly wasn’t sensitive about how he said it, he did state is was sanctions related.
  
  He was not clear on that at all. For all we know it could be an excuse among the several vague ones he gave or a reference to pressure from Feds.
  
  And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts - the "various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing.
  \
  \ If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
  
  The "various comoliance requirements" are unstated. Everything here is being left to a vague implication.
Fuck Russia. Pretty good reason.
- For what reason do all Russians deserve to be punished and excluded as pariahs?
  
  This is not collective punishment.
  
  Of course it is. It is punishing all members of a nationality for the actions if their government.
  
  I didn't realize all Russians were in the Linux kernel maintainers file. Silly me.
  
  A trivial bad faith reading. Think about it for a few seconds more: what qualified their removal?
  
  Read a newspaper some time. You might learn a thing about that.
  
  lmao what kind of zinger is that
  
  Being obediet dogs like germans during nazi regime.
  
  Nearly all citizens are obedient to their countries. Why single out Russians?
  
  Becuase russia and israel are causing seriouss issues currently.
  Before you do america too... Decent part of america was not larping the war either. It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.
  Hopefully never again but who are we kidding...
  
  Before you do america too
  Yes this is the obvious cognitive dissonance that arises from my question. The US has invaded and bombed countries, couped countries, plunged millions into poverty and death, consistently for decades. Buy I don't see any if you saying, "Fuck America" and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
  The US is backing Israel's genocide to the hilt righy now. It would not happen without American support that Israel depends on. And most European countries are backseat supporters if that agenda. Where is your bleating for villification of every person from all those countries?
  Decent part of america was not larping the war either.
  Which war? There have been so many US-bscked wars in recent years that I have no idea which one you would be referring to.
  But I am confused about the qualifier. Who had said anything about larping? This is collective punishment and chauvinism against all Russians.
  It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.
  Can I get a "Fuck America"?
  Hopefully never again but who are we kidding...
  Not just never again, it is happening right now, under Dems, with support of their candidates that is part of the admin doing genocide. Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?
  
  Buy I don't see any if you saying, "Fuck America" and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
  Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
  However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel... I don' think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
  I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
  
  Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
  You should be if you respect your own thoughts that you are sharing.
  Really, you are tacitly aknowledging what this really is: national chauvinism and Russophobia. Liberals taking their opportunity to be racist and xenophobic without being singled out as problematic.
  However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel...
  It is below the bare minimum, it is just slightly less jingoistic than in spaces curated by monopolies and staffed with literal feds. Pro-genocide discourse is strong here, it just hides behind electoralism discourse and feigned reluctance.
  I don' think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
  It won't be a mainstream opinion in US-centric spaces without political education of such people.
  I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
  It was a very small part of it, really. Liberals rewrote their histories about their support for wars of aggression against Iraq and Afghanistan. They pretend to have been against it when they were actually part of their version of the "silent majority" and rampant islamophobia. The protests rapidly ran out of steam as Americans don't even know how to fight against their state.
  
  Really, you are tacitly aknowledging what this really is: national chauvinism and Russophobia.
  yes 🤡
  
  Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?
  There it is, .ml maga losers raising their heads off the mud again
  
  I think you are confused. Being against the genocide of Gaza is not a MAGA thing.
  
  Idk there fits many kind of Nazis in the maga crowd
  
  They keep bringing up how small the protests were and how they "ran out of steam" or w/e. It really shows how little they actually know about the US.
  
  The protests against the War on Iraq represented a small percentage of the US population and ran out of steam in a few weeks.
  
  Because Russia has invaded another country and is currently committing a genocide. Christ 🤦‍♀️
  
  Russia is not committing a genocide. However, the US and Israel are have been invading Lebanon and Syria.
  Do you support removing all Americans from the maintainer lost? Can I get a "Fuck America"?
  
  We aren't talking about "all Russians". What thread are you watching?
  
  Of course you are. This thread is about people getting kicked off the maintainer list for simply being Russian and y'all are bleating "good, fuck Russia".
  
  Yes. I am saying that the Russian people who were maintaining anything in the Linux kernel commits have a very real threat of not only being compromised to do ill, but also have their identity on the commit chain being taken over by state actors.
  What in the hell are you arguing for here?
  
  lmao what a load of crap.
  But anyways thanks for contradicting yourself.
  
  If I'm saying this, and the founders and mainters of the Linux Kernel agree, it really seems like I'm not wrong here.
  Might be time reevaluate some stuff.
  
  If I'm saying this, and the founders and mainters of the Linux Kernel agree, it really seems like I'm not wrong here.
  Believe or not both you and Linus Torvalds can be wrong. Shocking, I know. I don't know how you'll break the news to your loved ones.
  Might be time reevaluate some stuff.
  Yes, like you contradicting your entire previous comment and then continuing on like nothing happened.
  
  Linus is just following the law, the law != doing the right thing.
  
  There's a law for Open Source projects with no country governance? Holy shit. News to me.
  
  Lmfao, what law is being followed here? Come on.
He just applied Russians’ favorite soviet era saying “those who is not with us is against us”
- Who did that? And that is a cartoonish an embarrassing thing for you to say I'd a soviet saying, let alone a popular one.