Trump-Putin call on war in Ukraine is another blow to Kyiv and its allies
Trump-Putin call on war in Ukraine is another blow to Kyiv and its allies
I don't think the Ukrainians would agree with your assertion that their desire for independence is based on a "liberal obsession with the personalities involved". I know for a fact that if it was my country being invaded by a hostile neighbor, I would hope someone out there would help us fight back...and not just encourage my people to surrender.
Would this have been your advice to the Vietnamese when the Americans invaded their country? On the surface, they didn't stand much of a chance either...so why didn't they just give up and let the US take what they wanted, in order to "save more lives"? Why would any country resist being invaded by a hostile foreign power? By this logic, the aggressor should always win...and no one would ever be safe.
Ukraine's 2014 coup d'etat brought US-backed fascists into power, which fractured the country into a civil war. The oblasts in the east and south sought independence in order to escape the ensuing ethnic persecution, but in response, fascist paramilitaries invaded the donbass and escalated it to violent ethnic cleansing. Eight years of attempted ceasefires were broken by the West^[https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/02/10/ukraine-zelensky-minsk-peace-russia/] before Russia finally intervened.
What fractured the country into civil war, was Russia annexing Crimea during the Euromaidan revolt.
during the Euromaidan revolt
You understand the chronology.
BTW, even Western-based polling consistently showed the clear majority of Crimeans supported the referendum.
The war in the Donbass was also discrete from Crimea (where there was never armed conflict).
That's the thing with international law...you can hold a referendum if you want to, but it doesn't mean you get to just give the land to someone else. The entire country needs to decide on that...not just one region.
If those people want to become Russian citizens, they have every right to apply for citizenship and move to Russia. No one is stopping them. But they don't get to take the land with them. That land belongs to Ukraine. All of Ukraine. Taking it, without the rest of the country agreeing to let it go, typically results in civil war.
The problem however, is when foreign countries like Russia intervene in order to tip the scales and take that land for themselves. That is illegal. That is an act of aggression. It is an act of war. Not just civil war, but open war between nations.
Ukraine didn't start that. They didn't attack Russia. Russia attacked them. And then continued their effort to steal more land, by openly invading the country.
Honestly, if that's your take-away from what I said...then you didn't understand any of it. China has no more "rights" over Taiwan, than Russia does over Ukraine.
Lol! The "entire country of China" fell apart when Taiwan split off. If you really want to be technical about it, Taiwan actually represents the "real" government of China, since that's where the previously existing government took refuge during the Communist revolution. All that remained of "China", was on that island. What was created on the mainland was something new. Something different.
The exact same situation occurred with Ukraine and the Russian Federation during the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union ceased to exist. In its place, separate countries were formed.
Let's be honest, they were hardly going to leave their nuclear submarine bases in the hands of a hostile government, were they...
They seemed perfectly fine with those based where they were for almost 30 years.
Because they weren't based in a country trying to join NATO during those 30 years. Until the maiden coup they were very close.
Imagine if China managed to orchestrate a coup in Scotland. Do you expect the British wouldn't attempt to secure their nuclear submarine bases on the coast near Glasgow?
Ukraine has been working towards closer ties with the EU since the fall of the Soviet Union...and made its first official request to join NATO in 2008. None of this is new.
They were on the brink of signing a comprehensive trade agreement with the EU, which had already been ratified by their parliament, when Yanukovych 180'd on the deal, after pretending to support it in order to get elected.
That is what got him ousted. As soon as Ukrainians realized he was not working in their best interests, they took to the streets demanding his resignation.
There was no outside influence, other than Russia working to undermine the deal Ukraine had spent the better part of a decade negotiating. And when their plan to sabotage that deal fell through...they annexed Crimea and funded an insurgency in Eastern Ukraine. And when progress stalled in their efforts to take even more land...they invaded.
Russia has been interfering in Ukraine's sovereignty for decades. Not the US. Russia.
Lol! Do you know how easy it is to find a few hundred racists willing to wave flags and yell obscenities in front of a camera? You can find people like that in Russia too.
Are you kidding? Putin would never let someone get that close to him. He's too afraid of being assassinated.
This guy however, doesn't seem to mind.
Nice AI slop there, man. Good to see you're getting your information from reliable sources.
Ummm, yeah. You should recheck your dates. Crimea was invaded in February, 2014. Poroshenko didn't take office until June, 2014.
You do know that you would be killed in Russia for showing your pronouns, right?
So why do you keep simping for their propaganda?
Ukraine has been sovereign since 1990. They are not a part of Russia anymore since then.
So even if your fascism misinformation was correct, it still wouldn't give Russia the right to invade.
Not supporting these Alt-Right Pro-Russian conspiracy theories. War in Ukraine is not justified. You have been banned for spreading Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories.
Ukraine was independent before it was couped in 2014 by the US and pushed to fight against Russia, intentionally breaking agreements with Russia and fomenting war precisely so it could be carved up by the US and the EU and turned into a neo-colony. If my country was being invaded by the country my leadership was instigating a war with for years, agreeing to treaties and then intentionally breaking them, multiple times in the decade prior to the invasion, while said leadership is blatantly profiting off of it, I would certainly blame my own government for inciting such a situation, and plenty of Ukrainians do.
Comparing Vietnam to Ukraine is such a fucking cracker take that it must hurt your arm. Vietnam was colonized and brutalized by France and then invaded by the US, two nations which are thousands of miles away and otherwise had no base of support in the region. They were fighting an actual people's war of liberation against a force who had literally taken over more or less the entire nation, enslaving it for a century. Ukraine didn't even exist until the fall of the Soviet Union and has been a corrupt oligarchy since. Liberals are so clueless yet so confident in showing how they refuse to learn a single thing.
I know a lot of Ukrainians...many who were students at the time of the Maiden protests. It had nothing to do with the US. At all. They simply didn't want their country taken over by Russia again.
Prior to 2014, Ukraine was already moving away from Russian influence. The Yanukovych government actually represented a reversal of policy that went back over 2 decades, since Ukraine first declared its independence from Russia. Once he was ousted, Ukraine went back to the direction it had been heading, before he changed that course. That wasn't a coup. It was the end of one.
Putin never approved of Ukrainian independence. He was determined to prevent Ukraine from getting closer to Europe, by any means necessary...and Yanukovich was just another attempt to sabotage that relationship. When the Ukrainians realized who he was really working for, they took to the streets in protest.
This wasn't an attack on Russia, although it was an open rejection of their influence.
And if you actually understood anything about Ukrainian history...you would know that the comparison to Vietnam's history, is much closer than you're willing to admit. Ukraine has been occupied by Russia for centuries. Treated as a vassal state, and subjected to horrendous abuses at the hands of the Russian Empire, and later the Soviet Union. The ruling class in Moscow has always viewed Ukrainians as peasants and lesser people.
Why do you think they were so eager to be free, as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed?
Yeah based on your posting I'm not surprised you know Maidan participants and parrot their talking points. You're describing the affects of western influence, and a common one at that, dividing a region into camps and luring one to work for the colonial powers against the regional interests. The imperialists empower some groups against others, and in this case they empowered literal white supremacists with the promise that they would become true blue europeans if they only sacrifice their neighbors, and themselves. To argue that a slavic nation is doing the right thing by getting pulled into a feud with it's neighbors in order to join forces with the imperialist, colonial camp is again the most cracker take you can possibly have on the region.
The only people who wanted to be free from the the USSR were literal banderite fascists who were tired of having to hide their love of pogroms. The quality of life in Ukraine and all of the former Soviet Union plummeted and has never recovered. The best comparison of the Ukrainian leadership post 2014 in the Vietnam context is to the comprador catholic french speaking Vietnamese who hoped to exploit their own relatives to live it up with genocidal fascists and colonizers
It's pretty weird that you're talking about Ukraine, while discounting the views of actual Ukrainians in your assessment. All you seem to know is what Ukraine looks like from a Russian perspective.
That says a lot.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx
The majority of Ukrainians want a swift, negotiated end to this war. The data typically disagrees with cracker sentiments but the crackers always act like their position is correct. This is the crux of crackerdom.
The Ukrainians who you are prioritizing are not only a minority of Ukrainians but they are literally neo nazis
You didn't really read the results of those pills, did you? You just picked one sub-stat to focus on. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians want Russia to leave their country, and give back what they've stolen, regardless of how that happens. Fight or negotiate...they want Russia out.
The poll states clearly that the majority of Ukrainians are okay with ceding territory to Russia in exchange for ending the war.
The polls also exclude 10-12% of the population who live in the Eastern parts of Ukraine, and that group is almost always in favor of the pro-Russian choices in any polling, which means the numbers are actually higher than the polling suggests in favor of ending the war and ceding territory
You didn't read it very well, then.
It clearly states that 52% want a quick end to the war....obviously. "OF THAT GROUP", approximately half are willing to concede territory in order to achieve it. "Of THAT group", there is a range of answers as to how much territory they'd be willing to give up. Those percentages get smaller and smaller the further you dig into that initial percentage.
As a blanket percentage that includes everyone willing to give up at least some territory... you're talking approximately one quarter of those polled. One quarter. Not an actual majority.
You've shifted the goalposts multiple times. either way, the majority of Ukrainians want the war to end when this polling was done, a significant amount are willing to cede territory, the next numbers in this poll are 10-12% lower than they actually are due to not polling the pro-Russian population in eastern Ukraine, and as time goes on the numbers will get higher because Ukrainians are losing the war, more territory, and entire generations of citizens along with their future. If you are pro Ukrainian you would be agreeing with Ukrainians that the war needs a negotiated peace and in order to do so they will have to give Russia concessions
Addressing the points you're making isn't "shifting the goalposts"...it's just pointing out that you're incorrect.
Even if the 10-12% unaccounted for all want to cede land to Russia, it still isn't a majority. And simply saying that 52% want to negotiate doesn't imply what you are saying it does. Of course they want the war to end. That isn't the gotcha you think it is.
The fact that after years of fighting, that majority is as slim as it is...and the fact that half of those who even want to negotiate for peace rather than continue to fight, don't want to cede any land at all to Russia...speaks volumes for how the majority of Ukrainians feel about the situation. And it isn't what you're claiming. A full 3/4 of the population don't think Russia should be given anything in a settlement, regardless of how it's reached.
That's what the majority want.
Russia is breaking way more agreements than any other country.
Yes, including the US.
