New discussion post coming soon re: Changes to Hexbear communities. mod statement in comment

Hello users of Hexbear, we wanted to inform you that we are going to be locking the_dunk_tank and dredge_tank communities. We have created two new communities /c/gossip and /c/counterpropaganda to serve a similar but clearly distinct purpose than the dunk/dredge tanks.

Not only is the dunk tank a term that has racist origins, but also many posts there were almost no effort and often times requiring later edits to show how they weren't reactionary, ~~not useful with regard to developing rhetoric and furthering dialectical analysis of that which we dunk upon~~.

To that end, we wish posts of reactionaries to be placed in !counterpropaganda@hexbear.net along with an accompanying explanation (as simple or complex as desired) with the intent of countering the reactionary propaganda in the post body, as of now comments are not subject to the same ~~rhetorical rigor~~ rule.

For the posts ~~that are not "low-hanging fruit'~~ of notable people we ask that you use !gossip@hexbear.net .

These changes are mainly part of a continued effort to remove the racist and misogynistic elements from our community and grow.

Any moderators of the dunk tank or dredge tank that want to be a mod in the new communities let me know.

Any users with questions or comments please use this post, this change was made at the behest of the entire Hexbear mod and admin team. We will be looking for more moderators in an organized volunteer drive shortly, if you wish to submit an application you may send it to me via hexbear or matrix direct messages.

Use this post as a place for discussion to these changes. We will keep things as they are for 2 weeks and then reflect on the feedback, including this post: https://hexbear.net/post/3858346

As a personal addendum I am sorry if ~~the closing of the tanks~~ these changes removes a beloved space on the site and if you want to suggest a community to replace them you may do so at !commrequest@hexbear.net or submit a mod application to take a more active role in shaping the site.

Sitewide or community changes come from proposals put forth from the mod team, discussed, and voted on by the mod team.

Any users wanting to suggest a community to replace the tanks, may do so at !commrequest@hexbear.net current discussion is here https://hexbear.net/post/3858346 or submit a mod application to take a more active role in shaping the site.

You may also consider using !shitreactionariessay@lemmygrad.ml as a substitute for dunk/dredge tank posts as well

The mod statement can be found here: https://hexbear.net/comment/5613033

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1.3K comments

I rarely, if ever, comment on these kind of editorial or mod decisions. In part because I really appreciate the vast majority of what mods here volunteer to do and recognise the hard graft they put in just to keep this place going without it going off the rails. Partly because, as much as I'm very fond of this community and some of the things we've achieved - as well as it being an oasis in a sea of constant turned-up-to-11 reactionary shit both online and off - it is still just a website I enjoy contributing to or just reading. It's not my life or social space or vessel for my activism.
So while no one has to, I hope you'll indulge me in this rare instance I weigh in...
I think replacing the comm, if simply renaming it is tricky, is a good idea. That particular racist connotation isn't worth the (admittedly fitting) name, and plenty of users have suggested others. If for reasons of technical ease or federation gremlins it's better to delete or lock the old comm and replace it, sure, sounds good.
That being said, this odd split and potential intent change of the comms, complicated by vague and ill-defined rules (what is a public person online, who is notable, what is the threshold for influence etc?) seems like a pretty ill-conceived idea being messaged in an even more cack-handed way. Having read the entirety of this thread, that seems pretty clear by the general reaction that this is the common sentiment (even if I don't agree with all of the reasons posted).
Plenty of other people have made similar points rather well, but I think there's merit and value in having a simple space where people can post terrible takes, examples of disingenuous or reactionary narratives, or brainworms on full display. Ridicule can be a tool that's effective in talking with people and dismantling especially knee-jerk unthinking reactionary narratives. But I'd also argue that the ability to throw down an absurdly reactionary or unhinged take for ridicule and have comrades instinctively understand why it's worthy of such, is a kind of bonding and being seen that most people don't get in their every day lives. And that had value too.
The proposed names are also dreadful. Aside from the negative and potentially sexist connotations of 'gossip' as pointed out by others, that also sounds to me like a comm that's for inside baseball about Hexbear, not ridicule of 'notable figures'. Counterpropaganda is slightly better, but still seems to be pitched as essentially deciding to debate into the void. I feel like strong, simple counters to reactionary clichés often get posted in the comments of dunk tank posts, regardless of whether it's presented with an explanation or not. I also think that the creator of a post laying out exactly why it's bullshit predetermines why it is bullshit, and potentially discourages (explicitly or not) other takes on why these reactionary thoughts are nonsense. Many of the best, most succinct counterpoints I've seen and used from the dunk tank were because a user was looking at why the posted content was worthless or reactionary in a totally different way than me.
Mostly I'm just perplexed by what the motivation is behind these changes, even after reading the comments mods have taken the time to write in active response.Rather than continue to ramble, although I'm likely to have more to say, I suppose it might be more useful for me to ask some questions of the mods, devs, and anyone else who wants to weigh in...
Is there an issue with the amount of moderation required and generated by these comms? Is the rule change or differently pitched comms because mods are spending too much time removing potentially reactionary posts that are too vague about what is the intended target of 'dunking' etc?
Does the mod / dev team percieve an issue with the tone of the majority of posts in these comms? If so, what is it?
Does any of this stem from concerns about ther 'seriousness' of the site or the amount of jokey / outwardly hostile that appear within the top posts, either locally or for visitors? If so, to what degree?
What other reasons or concerns do the mods/devs/other users have about these comms beyond the need for a name change? There's been some passing mention of 'low effort' posts, but can you clarify what you mean or why such posts are a negative thing for the community?
I'll leave it there for now as I've already probably typed too much.
- Mostly I'm just perplexed by what the motivation is behind these changes, even after reading the comments mods have taken the time to write in active response.Rather than continue to ramble, although I'm likely to have more to say, I suppose it might be more useful for me to ask some questions of the mods, devs, and anyone else who wants to weigh in...
  This!
  I'm not clear what problem this is supposed to to solve.
- Best post, pin this, lock the thread.
  Or don't lock the thread since I want a response to this post, but you know, stop all the other discussion now that we have the best post.
- I don't care if decisions are made by mod fiat or democratically as long as the decision is good
- not really
  no
  no
  a bunch of powerless people venting their rage by getting mad at other powerless people is toxic and fosters misanthropy, the outlawing of dunking on private people is meant to shift the rage to more deserving targets
  
  a bunch of powerless people venting their rage by getting mad at other powerless people is toxic and fosters misanthropy, the outlawing of dunking on private people is meant to shift the rage to more deserving targets
  Excuse me but seriously? The same people featured in those comms that would rather put US in front of a wall or in the genocide camps.
  We're not riding this out with naive ideals about peace and love of the human race. Its fine to have enemies, as a matter of fact we have enemies, a lot of them. For some of the LGBTQ on this community they know even better. This is liberalism period. Love everyone kindly we say as they put the guns in our forehead and prepare to shoot?
  IMO real misanthropy is actual fascism or things like e.g ecofascism. We're nowhere near this as a community and its even silly to suggest posting about random Muskoid #2156 being horrible is pushing us there specialy when its that chud that would gladly be the first one to put everyone here in a camp or worst.
  This type of reasoning is so extremely naive its not even funny. You'll not get people to stop wishing for westerners to suffer just because the dunk tank is gone. Have some introspection. People are frustrated exactly because nothing is being done and nothing is changing except for the worse. The root cause is not a random comm of a website with like 200 active users.
  The frustration that manifests with wishes of retribution and even violence are rooted in real events, Oct 7th being the obvious one. You're not changing anything here and seems largely missing the point of how we got her.e.
  
  You're apparently replying to one of the_dunk_tanks mods... I think we fount the person who argued for this change lol
  
  Thanks for the input.
  On your last point I suppose I just don't really see the dunk tank as people getting mad, perhaps because the content posted there is more likely to make me roll my eyes or have fun basking in the ridiculousness of the takes, than be legitimately angry at something some reactionary spewed out into the online space.
  I definitely think there's a reasonable argument as to not focus our efforts on tearing apart mostly anonymous takes that no one would probably otherwise see (even if it can occassionally be fun).
  That being said, I think focusing on bad faith arguments or frequent reactionary sentiments or narratives primarily from 'notable figures' (however we define that) doesn't really fit the way these things are often spread online. Increasingly this stuff is spread and reinforced through repetition by both bots and willing volunteers or just uncritical users online. Political think tanks, PR groups, propagandists of all stripes test this stuff online to see what sticks or gets taken up. Waiting for, or having to find a specific instance of, a politician or an Elon Musk or a well known Anglo op-ed writer feels oddly institutional and like putting the cart before the horse.
  But perhaps I'm still missing something. Are there concerns about potential friendly fire against others on the left? An attempt to appear more welcoming to outsiders in general? Something else?
  
  Considering the fact that was one of the mods replying to you and he was dismissive and hostile, I doubt there's any concerns about friendly fire or any attempts at being welcoming in general.
  
  Your fourth point is shitty toxic hostility, which you claim to be against. The person you're responding to, alongside many others, have taken time to make an effort to explain why they believe dunking to be a good practice. If you are going to critique it, especially in response to someone, then take the time to adress those arguments, instead of just reasserting your claims. What you are doing is being a dismissive dickhead, which is weird since you claim that doing that is bad.
  
  You can just block the comm if you actively dislike it that much? Why would you mod it??
  
  Maybe just don't mod the comm if you don't like the content, jesus

1270 comments