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sunaurus @lemm.ee

Hexbear federation megathread

Hey folks

I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.

I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.

Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:

  • Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
  • Use arguments rather than calling people names
  • Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual

With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.

On defederation in general

First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.

I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.

Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.

Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.

Regarding hexbear

Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.

The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.

My own experience with hexbear

I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.

Background

My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).

I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.

Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.

Hexbear user response

Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:

  • Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
  • Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
  • Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier

I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.

Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.

Hexbear admin response

After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:

  1. They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
  2. They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
  3. They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways

Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.

At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.

I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don't have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.

Where thing stand right now

I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.

Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.

Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.

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1.5K comments

  • I'm firmly in the "tone it down" camp on Hexbear (especially on other instances) and I appreciate people's patience and I'm glad that some people have gotten past our rough exterior. I'm hoping things will quiet down and stabilize before we burn our bridges. I'm glad to hear that your experience with our mods was positive and that you're focusing more on that, over the years I've come to trust our mods and I believe they're committed to making this work.

    As has already been mentioned and acknowledged, clarification on Kremlin propaganda would be appreciated. I agree with removing false information, but I'm of the belief that it's important to understand the positions and perspective of every nation, especially those considered enemies, for the sake of peace. I do not trust any source from any state implicitly, but rather I believe in gathering information from a variety of sources and critically examining each. I grew up in a "post 9/11 world" and in that context, any attempt to understand the motivations or historical context behind that event, beyond "They hate us for our freedom," was treated with suspicion, along with all sorts of lies about Muslims in general. Since then, I don't go along with hating who I'm told to hate, at least until I feel I've investigated the matter fully. To that end, I think there is value in listening critically to state-affiliated sources, from every side.

    I look forward to having productive discussions in the future.

    • 🥰

    • I'm also very interested in a more clear definition of what this instance considers "Kremlin propaganda"

      Is posting Russian music Kremlin Propaganda? Is linking an RT news article Kremlin propaganda? Is Al Jazeera Kremlin propaganda? Is there a list of allowed/non-Kremlin propaganda news sources we need to use?

      Is the Kremlin propaganda limited to the past 20 years or is posting old Soviet art and literature also considered Kremlin propaganda? Is posting articles from Seymour Hersch Kremlin propaganda? Is posting Blowback podcast episodes Kremlin propaganda?

      Can I share opinions on the works of Lenin and Marx or is socialist literature that came out of the Russian revolution also considered Kremlin propaganda?

      This term is incredibly broad and not very useful unless you're being explicitly anti-communist or are being xenophobic towards Russians.

      I understand the sentiment "no propaganda", but you also never clarified if posting Western propaganda is also taboo. Can I post NPR and Federalist articles? Can I share stuff from BBC and the Economist? Am I allowed to share an NBC story sponsored by Lockheed Martin about the new high tech MANPADS the US is sending to Ukraine?

      I just want some clear examples of what is considered propaganda and what the lines on this are.

    • ...I agree with removing false information, but I'm of the belief that it's important to understand the positions and perspective of every nation, especially those considered enemies, for the sake of peace.

      I see what you're getting at with this paragraph and statement, but in the context of the original post I have to call it out and ask further questions.

      First, is there any context I'm missing? The examples of Kremlin propaganda provided by OP seem pretty straightforward to me. Russia is attempting to paint outside groups as subhuman. Are you attempting to be an apologist for those statements, or are there posts/comments that were painted in too broad of a stroke as Kremlin propaganda?

      Second, I am calling out the whataboutism in your post. Under the rules outlined for lemme.ee, and in this post, there is nothing that points to support of Western imperialism, support of nationalism for any other country, or bias against Muslims. I don't see what the point is of bringing any of that up except to distract and attempt to steer the conversation away from the topic at hand.

      • :::spoiler Spoiler for off-topic

        Russia is attempting to paint outside groups as subhuman. Are you attempting to be an apologist for those statements?

        I don't know which specific statements you're referring to, but no, I don't agree with painting anyone as subhuman.

        are there posts/comments that were painted in too broad of a stroke as Kremlin propaganda?

        I don't know, because the post is unclear as to what constitutes Kremlin propaganda, which is why I asked for clarification.

        Second, I am calling out the whataboutism in your post.

        Explaining my motivations for seeking out information from multiple sources is not whataboutism. I believe that it's worthwhile to understand the perspectives and mentalities of groups that I disagree with, and I presented the example of my experiences in a "post 9/11 world" to illustrate the dangers of equating "Seeking to understand the other side's motivations" with "Agreeing with the other side." 20 years ago, we could be having a very similar conversation but I'd be accused of being a terrorist sympathizer instead of a Russian propagandist. Understanding the historical context of the creation of the Taliban and their motivations does not mean that I agree with them just as it does not when I understand the same as Russia. But it's easier to recognize that that's true of past events, because it is no longer in the heat of the moment.

        I consider your accusation of whataboutism to be anti-intellectual. The study of history is vital to understanding the present. Writing off all historical comparisons or attempts to learn from the past is dangerous and not valid. How can we possibly avoid repeating the mistakes of the past if we can't compare them to present events?

        • I don't know which specific statements you're referring to, but no, I don't agree with painting anyone as subhuman.

          Good! And thanks for answering the questions and responding to my statements directly. It's a breath of fresh air.

          the post is unclear as to what constitutes Kremlin propaganda

          From the post:

          Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.

          I don't see what's unclear about that paragraph. My summary/interpretation of it is: it starts with the blanket term of "Kremlin Propaganda", but then goes on to define what OP considers to be Kremlin propaganda and why it is considered to be rule-breaking. Bigotry in dehumanizing Kremlin talking points is treated like other bigotry. Do you think this interpretation is inaccurate?

          Explaining my motivations for seeking out information from multiple sources is not whataboutism.

          I am confused, what specific claims is the OP making that you want to validate / invalidate with other sources? Are you referring specifically to the claim that the Kremlin is I think not being sure of this is why I interpreted your comment the way I did.

          I consider your accusation of whataboutism to be anti-intellectual.

          My accusation of whataboutism comes from skepticism, which I do not think was misplaced. I saw your first comment as a veiled attempt at detracting/distracting from specifically the dehumanizing statements of the Kremlin.

          • :::spoiler spoiler for off-topic

            OP said this:

            I've received this feedback a lot and I'm starting to see that cultural backgrounds probably have a very big effect on how "Kremlin propaganda" is understood. I think a major missing piece of the puzzle is a lot of the Kremlin propaganda is generally just presented in Russian, and probably the vast majority of Lemmy users don't speak any Russian. I'll have to think about this topic a bit more.

            I interpret that to mean that he agrees that there's a need for clarification about what constitutes Kremlin propaganda. You say,

            but then goes on to define what OP considers to be Kremlin propaganda and why it is considered to be rule-breaking

            I don't see any such definition. I see that he says bigotry and communist symbolism is rule-breaking in the context of Kremlin propaganda, but I don't see any standard by which I can evaluate whether something will be considered Kremlin propaganda. I'm guessing it would include Russian state-affiliated sources, but I don't know if it would include, for example, a US based communist newsletter that supported the USSR. There is no standard given in what you quoted by which that question can be evaluated.

            I am confused, what specific claims is the OP making that you want to validate / invalidate with other sources?

            I'm am even more confused. What did I say that made you think I was talking about specific claims made by OP? All I've said is that I like to gather information from a variety of sources. Some people would call some of those sources Russian propaganda. Some people would call others of those sources American propaganda. I'm very confused about what you're talking about.

            My accusation of whataboutism comes from skepticism, which I do not think was misplaced.

            Of course, whenever a war is going on, a large amount of skepticism is always directed at the people calling for peace. In the words of the Nazi politician Hermann Göring:

            Naturally the common people don't want war . . . but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or parliament or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

            You might recognize that this "denouncing the pacifists for lack of patriotism" is exactly what I was referencing when I used the example of the post 9/11 skepticism of anyone who pushed back against the lies and Islamophobia pushed by the media at that time. Or I guess you'll dismiss that is "whataboutism" as well, since you evidentially you don't think it's valid to learn anything from historical events.

            This sort of unreasonable dismissal of historical lessons, combined with accusations, is something that we're quite used to, and a part of why we are the way we are. On my home instance, I would respond to your unreasonable accusations by becoming equally unreasonable, in an effort to either make you either debate in good faith without such baseless accusations, or leave. You've already decided what you think about me and my motivations based on a knee-jerk reaction based on anti-intellectualism, and there is nothing I could say that would make you see reason.

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