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How some of the post-federation Ukraine threads feel like
How some of the post-federation Ukraine threads feel like
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250 comments
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“No-n-no, it’s different this time because—because—because—“
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“In culture war crap, we tend to align! Yeah it’s for different reasons! I’m only for or against something because the people I hate decided it’s a new front!”
I swear they just do Ukraine support out of a culture war thing because 2016 elections, Russia and Trump.
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Abandoning the idea that Russia buying a relatively miniscule amount of ads on social media/running bot farms swayed the 2016 election would mean that liberals would have to confront the idea that Trump won in 2016 b/c the country is actually more racist than they thought it was.
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They'd have to blame the electoral college more than anything. Clinton received 3 million more votes and still lost. Liberals are servants to rules and procedures even to their own detriment.
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That, and the anti-Democratic structure of presidential elections is a much more serious problem than they thought.
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... because this time the US is backing Ukraine against the aggressor, whereas in 2004 it was the aggressor?
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so when Victoria Nuland picked Ukraine's new government after instigating a coup and they killed ~16,000
civilianspeople in Donbas between 2014 and 2022 those were friendly, non-aggressive artillery shells?-
So you're saying that Russia didn't invade Ukraine first, before the separatist-controlled areas were shelled?
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2014 is before 2022 hope that helps
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Oh, so you're saying that Russia illegally annexing Crimea in 2014 wasn't an invasion of Ukraine?
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You can always tell who the most ignorant libs are when they bring up Crimea lmao
Crimea is not Ukrainian, it has always been a distinct cultural ethnic region and 97% of Crimeans voting for independence from Kiev should give you pause before you breathlessly insist they should remain beholden to a bunch of nazi banderites
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Crimeans wanting independence means they wanted to become part of the Russian empire again?
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the Russian federation is a reactionary bourgeois state that is a hollowed out shell of its former USSR self, but I dislike the hyperbole that it is "the Russian Empire". Russia Today is neither the Russian empire, nor the Soviet Union. If anything it is closer politically to what it would have been if the February revolution had continued and the October revolution never happened: A bourgeois state.
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a russian majority region would rather not be ethnically cleansed
they join russia
those people are pro russian empire traitors
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Yes you dumb fuck, as a means of protection from the nazi captured Ukrainian army who would've otherwise bulldozed the small region
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making it pretty obvious here that you have no idea who Victoria Nuland is and only started paying attention to any of this stuff in 2022
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Oh, I've been following the whole thing for years and know who she is.
I just don't think that her supporting pro-democratic and anti-corruption reform in Ukraine equates to it being okay for Russia to annex part of a neighbouring country.
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Democracy is when you replace an elected leader with a pro-western one.
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Liberal Democracy is all about giving Americans the right to vote in your countries elections.
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pro-democratic
democracy is when you pick the new officials yourself on a phone call with Geoffrey Pyatt
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Pro-democracy is when you ban left opposition but not fascists. Anti-corruption is when you have offshore accounts connected to the oligarch who funded said fascists that you used to work for on his TV program
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What are you referencing with the last part?
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The Pandora Papers revealed that Zelensky and his inner circle had offshore accounts connected to Kolomoisky. Kolomoisky is an oligarch that owned the TV station Zelensky worked for prior. He also funded nazi militias that couped the government in 2014
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supporting pro-democratic and anti-corruption reform in Ukraine
[laughs in Operation Aerodynamic]
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democracy is when you elect zelensky on a platform of peace with russia but he lets the Right Sector and Azov continue to try the ethnic cleansing of eastern ukraine
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Can you find Ukraine on a blank political map?
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I just don't think that her supporting pro-democratic and anti-corruption reform
Is this a joke? Pro democracy? Anti corruption? When has the US ever stood for that outside of propaganda purposes?
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Oh, so you're saying the Ukrainian government wasn't couped by nazis in 2014?
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I know borders are sacred and inviolable, but Ukraine and Russia were part of the same country until fairly recently. It's not weird that large populations of people would rather not be living under the rule of Ukrainian nationalists and decided to make some adjustments.
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Russia is the aggressor in this war, and it's bad that they invaded.
Russia invaded Ukraine in response to continued US policy of bringing countries near Russia's borders into NATO, a military treaty organization that Russia had tried to join but was barred from. Not acting would mean that Russia becomes increasingly encircled by military bases of a hostile superpower.
The Ukrainians are the victims in a proxy war between two much larger powers. For the average Ukrainian, sooner the war is over, the better. Somehow repelling the invasion would be ideal, but every day of fighting destroys lives and homes.
US policy in response to the invasion is to send military hardware to Ukraine, enriching its arms manufacturers and prolonging the conflict. They make the Ukrainian government pay for this by forcing the privatization of their government assets at bargain prices (note how this website exists and is fully translated to English). The actual fighting is still done by Ukrainians, who die for this.
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New here. I was reading all the snarky strawman comments here and thinking "what the fuck are these people on?". Then I read your comment, which is clearly and concisely written, and makes good points. I hadn't thought of it that way and it makes a lot of sense. Not saying my view is totally flipped around, but that's some food for thought and I'll be snacking down.
Now will the rest of you calm down about owning libs and speak nicely to each other?
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Hah, thanks.
When the war started, there were a lot of posts on here talking about the war in more nuance, and essays about Revolutionary Defeatism, Lenin's take on this from World War 1.
But after over a year of arguing with blood-thirsty neoliberals who want to fight to the last Ukrainian, people are more tired and just want to yell.
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Some additional food for thought (hopefully you aren't full
):- November 2013: Duly-elected Ukranian president Viktor Yanukovych declines to sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, sparking significant protests.
- Dec 2013: John McCain tells Ukraine protesters: "We are here to support your just cause"
- Feb 2014: Yanukovych agrees to early elections and a withdrawal of police from the capitol; the opposition agreed to surrender arms and cease violence. None of this was implemented and Yanukovych flees the country.
- Mar 2014: In the midst of this turmoil, 97% of Crimean voters (83% turnout) vote to join the Russian Federation (staying with Ukraine was the other option on thr ballot). Crimea declares independence and is annexed by Russia shortly after. Despite the significant protests elsewhere in Ukraine, this is a peaceful process.
- Sep 2014: West must arm Ukraine to fight "invasion": McCain
- 2014-15: Ukraine and Russia sign the Minsk agreements meant to stop the fighting between Ukraine and two other Russian-majority areas that want to leave Ukraine. These do not stop the fighting.
- Feb 2015: Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitaries declare any agreement with “pro-Russia terrorists” was “unconstitutional” and that his unit “reserves the right to continue active military operations” -- essentially nullifying the Minsk agreements.
- Feb 2019: Before most Western media was interested in Ukraine, the reporting that was done described "neo-Nazi pogroms against the Roma, rampant attacks on feminists and LGBT groups, book bans, and state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators."
- Dec 2022: In an interview published in Germany's Zeit magazine on Wednesday, former German chancellor Angela Merkel said that the Minsk agreements had been an attempt to "give Ukraine time" to build up its defences.
Given America's long history of sponsoring coups around the globe, what are the chances the 2014 ouster of Yanukovych was organic? Had a prominent Russian politician visited DC on January 6th, 2021, and fired up the crowd against the government, what would your reaction have been? When you have neo-Nazis undermining the Minsk agreements from the start and Angela Merkel admitting they were not agreed to in good faith, what does that say about Russia's diplomatic options? Is it possible that some parts of Ukraine really do want to leave?
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I'd suggest checking the pinned threads in the news megathread. They go in to some detail on the Ukraine situation.
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Not acting would mean that Russia becomes increasingly encircled by military bases of a hostile superpower.
It's a semantic point, but I think it's a stretch to call Russia the aggressor. Especially so if you remember the intensified bombings of civilian areas in eastern Ukraine, which really appeared like an attempt to provoke a Russian intervention.
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It’s an addendum to appease the libs by earning brownie points, and it never works
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After bombing a dozen countries across the oceans into the dirt for decades, constantly opening more and more military bases closer and closer to Russian, stationing and pointing more and more nukes closer to Russia, and arming fascists in a country bordering Russia is being the aggressor
This is so similar to arming the Mujahedeen against the USSR, but Europe version
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Ты придурок.
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@TranslatorBot@lemmygrad.ml English
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и вы являетесь сторонником российского империализма
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Ня я кошечка♪
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@TranslatorBot@lemmygrad.ml English
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:
This text was translated using DeepL.
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250 comments