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fixed cyberghost's "meme"
fixed cyberghost's "meme"
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No, it's literally socialism 101 so I wouldn't expect a tankie to understand.
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A tankie is a hardline ML in your opinion yes? Did you know most "tankies" read theory to better understand the world and are definitely more knowledgeable than "socialists" (by which you mean libs who aren't actually socialist like yourself)
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No, but one of the top posts in the "tankiverse" recently was saying that places like North Korea are the bastions of freedom.
More nuanced takes on communism, etc are done instances other than Hexbear and Lemmygrad.
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Why does your opinion on the DPRK align with propaganda from a country that killed 20 percent of all Koreans to prevent a unified democratic Korea?
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Why do you act like any one right of Karl Marx must be a dunce who blindly supports the global status quo?
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You're acting like it when you repeat American attitudes about the dprk.
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Sometimes it be that way.
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Source that isnt aligned with US interests?
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I'm not really in the business of sourcing things to users from an instance that is basically a Sealioning factory.
Ultimately, I will get told I don't understand economics until I've read all three volumes of Das Kapital. Ironically, it's no different that libertarians saying you don't understand economics unless you've read the works of Milton Friedman, or more importantly, Ayn Rand.
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"When you make a contentious claim and someone asks for a source that's them doing a logical fallacy"
Ultimately, I will get told I don't understand economics until I've read all three volumes of Das Kapital. Ironically, it's no different that libertarians saying you don't understand economics unless you've read the works of Milton Friedman, or more importantly, Ayn Rand.
Okay, except as part of the background of growing up in the imperial core youre already exposed to their ideology so you don't need to read it. You're not really exposed to Marxism here and you need a background to understand it.
I agree capital isn't the best starting point but for some reason anti-communists love trying to argue economics when they know nothing about economics, so thats when capital generally gets brought up and its become a meme from that.
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Have you considered not being or doing that?
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Link me to a nuanced take please
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What to you is a tankie. Are they in the room with us right now? Anyway I'm disengaging because you're clearly a debatebro (and lib) who can't argue in good faith. but I'll leave you a link to hexbears policy posting bulletins
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A tankie is a supporter of an authoritarian country that either is, or presents itself as, a left wing.
Pretty unambiguous definition.
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You need to define authoritarian in a way that doesn't include basically every country for that to be a reasonable definition.
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Jails dissidents without a modicum of due process.
Yeah it's a problem in a lot of countries, welcome to the "status quo".
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Thank you for acknowledging that it is basically useless because it is just a thing states do.
Also fascists and other reactionary dissidents should be repressed when they try to organize.
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I agree. This is why I caution more nuanced takes on economics. A lot of people on Hexbear think a revolution occuring in the US is going to look like 1917, but really it's going to be more like 1923. Take a look at the closest we have been to a "revolution" since 1776.
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The question is just how bad things are going to get before socialism happens. It might get to fascists killing people like me in the streets beforehand, but fascism will not resolve the contradictions of capitalism and will not prevent the inevitability of socialism.
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This is a human problem that cannot seem to be fixed. It feels like a simulation how history is constantly stuck in the same power cycles without sustained improvement.
There are innocent people who have been conditioned to think the status quo is the best we have, who themselves are victims of misinformation. The only left-wing revolutions I've seen in history involves purging these people from society, which eventually creates the left wing gestapos, like the NKVD. These organizations persist to squash dissidents and millions of deaths later these countries revert to capitalism or quasi-capitalism due to a failed system.
I don't know what the best answer to it is, but there are no quick fixes.
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I've read all three volumes of capital around a month ago because I had an autistic urge to do it
tell me with full seriousness that you've even glanced at it
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This is the worst attempt at Sealioning that I have ever seen.
Please tell me with full seriousness how redirecting capital from the capital class to the working class is anything other than socialism.
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how redirecting capital from the capital class to the working class is anything other than socialism.
Theres this concept, where the Capitalists are expropriated from and reproletarianized back into the working class whom in turn seize full control of the means of production and abolish the capitalist governments in order to build governments of/by/for the working class. Thats called building Socialism, and to do anything other than working towards the goal of liquidating the enemies of the working class is to do anything other than fighting for socialism.
Taking money from the rich and simply redistributing it a la your "profit sharing" does not solve the fundamental contradiction between the capitalist class and the working class as it does nothing to change the economic structure the two exist in opposition to each other. If nothing else. all you're advocating for is prolonging the existence of Capitalism and fighting against the interests of your own class by advocating for maintaining the cruel system of Capitalism but trying to disguise the worst visages it wears with smiley face emojis
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Ok. But you have to agree it's a lot closer to socialism than the status quo.
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No lol that's just welfare - something that can be done regardless of what economic system is in place. Now if you want a discussion on a contrastive analysis of the class dynamics of welfare under a Socialist and Capitalist system, that'd be an interesting topic to research into.
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I guess in your universe there's no true socialism, eh?
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Nope, the Soviet Union was Socialist. All other AES projects are also moving towards becoming socialist as well in their own distinctive manner.
It doesn't change you're a fucking liberal that thinks socialism is when you redistribute wealth without changing the existing economic system.
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There are no pure economic systems that currently exist or have ever existed.
I wouldn't expect users from Hexbear to understand nuance.
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thats because you're a dipshit idealist with your head
up your assin the clouds fantasizing about make-believe shit and denouncing everything that isn't as ephemeral and pure as a thought. Your entire ideology is that of theatrics that thinks nothing of concrete human beings, not the concrete workers of flesh and blood who are living and struggling in your country - or any country for that matter - but is an ideology devoid of materialist common sense.You're a liberal phrasemonger - Advocating for things and using phrases are Leftist, but in practice it turns out that they are aiding the enemies of the working class. You talk like you're on the Left but in actuality come out on the Right.
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Because they don't own the means of production. Socialism isn't just redirecting capital, it is about eliminating it and the ruling class. Profit sharing is a bandaid on the grand canyon; workers are still exploited by the capital class. Socialism is a completely and total shift so large and threatening to the ruling class that it can only happen through revolution, it's way bigger than sharing profits
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But you have to agree it’s a lot closer to socialism than the status quo.
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You sure went from "it's socialism 101, you stupid tankie!" to "well it's a marginal improvement on the status quo..." really quickly.
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No, it is the status quo. What you're describing is capitalism. It is not closer to socialism.
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Please link me to the careers page of these plentiful jobs that engage in substantive profit sharing for all working class employees.
Profits go to the capital class currently, that's the whole problem, right?
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You've never heard the term "stock option"?
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whataboutism
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That's not whataboutism, that was the original argument.
You guys are the worst trolls in the fediverse.
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I'm sorry you just did the fallacy-fallacy and your entire argument and opinion are now disregarded. Please return to the Rochester School of Rhetoric to obtain your speaking license.
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Ok I'll keep that in mind.
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DUDE YOU ARE LITERALLY JUST MAKING UP SOCIAL DEMOCRACY AGAIN
you definitely have not read a single page of marxist theory
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Social democracy sounds great, sign me up.
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Dude you still don't stop worker exploitation, don't solve the contradiction of working and capitalist classes, don't end imperialism or colonialism (social democracy outsources exploitation to the third world), and just set up a future capitalist takeover and descent into neoliberal hell.
You really haven't read any theory. At all. Did you take one silly phrase and think you had something?! Your politics are immature and uninformed. Please read theory.
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Ok let me know how your method works out because right now it's neither.
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The method has worked, is working, and will work
you won't see it though, I hope to kill people like you
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If course you would, like a good little authoritarian.
In my ideal society I'd give people like you the freedom you deserve.
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No one gives a shit about your ideal society, because we don't live in your imagination land.
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914 comments