The Problem With Israel Is So Much Bigger Than Netanyahu
Increasingly, mainstream Democrats have sought to carve out a space for “acceptable” Zionism by saying that they support Israel but oppose Bibi Netanyahu. But the horrors of Gaza are a result of processes far more vast than one right-wing leader.
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Bibi is Hitler, anyone who had a role in supporting him is a Nazi. There, problem identified. Now prosecute in international court.
Good start, but then you have to ask: Where is the opposition to the genocide? Where are the people horrified by the genocide being committed by their compatriots and taking to the streets? Where are the opposition politicians attacking Bibi for committing genocide?
This goes way beyond Netanyahu's supporters; even people who oppose him for corruption and anti-democratic behavior tend to support him, or at least toe the line, when it comes to the war.
I've tried reasoning with my Nazi-ass/Diet Nazi family, but they seem to earnestly believe that they're not Nazis. I try to provide emotional support to my cousin in the IDF, who has spent his entire career trying to protect Palestinians as best as he can, but we haven't heard from him for nearly a year now. I hope he's just in jail again for defying orders...
Other than that, I'm still freaking out too much about the Nazis gaining power here at home. There's too many goddamn Nazis these days...
What do you think Israel should have done after October 7? Packed up and left?
How about a proportionate response? Something Israel has refused to learn in ~80 years of oppressing Palestinians.
But also: don't explicitly allow the attack to occur in the first place (which we now know happened). Don't be shocked when 80 years of brutal oppression, ethnic cleansing, and now genocide, leads to desperate people who want to fight back any way they can.
Netanyahu sure as shit isn't shocked. He literally funded Hamas.
I personally wish that Netanyahu and whoever was in charge of the Defense were punished instead of invading Gaza for retaliation. Sucking up the 1200 slaughtered by the Al Qassam Brigade would have been cheaper with less death for everyone concerned.
From Israel's own self-interest perspective: they have lost 454 soldiers. They have had 148 hostages returned but could have had them all returned (and lost no soldiers) at the start of the war with a swap.
Israel underestimated the extent of the tunnels and the unquestioning support Hamas would get from the Global Left (eg believing the Al Ahli Hospital hoax).
But Hamas (who were as keen for war as Likud) also underestimated: they mistakenly thought the Arab League would join the war like in 1967.
And so the mission creep has gotten us to this situation today. The only realistic way out I see is if Hamas would surrender and the Arab League would occupy and reconstruct. I certainly would not trust Likud and the even more right wing parties in their coalition (who support expansionist terror by settlers in the West Bank).
Israel underestimated the extent of the tunnels and the unquestioning support Hamas would get from the Global Left
I have seen no such support... Surely you're not equating support for Palestine with Hamas.
Reporting Hamas propaganda as facts. If stating the source it is always "Gaza Health Ministry" never Hamas even though they are Hamas run.
This emboldens Hamas and prolongs the agony.
Generations of Israeli's could have stopped the genocide and apartheid before Oct 7. They didn't, because the majority of Israelis are pro-genocide fascists, who believe in their religious nationalist ethnostate with righteous indignation.
So you think Israel should have tried a one-state solution? I don't see any Arab governments anywhere in the Middle-East interested in anything other than their own brand of "religious nationalist ethno-state".
But one small such state for Israel is too much? (Which is very much more secular than any Arab state).
There's a lot of "righteous indignation" in this thread.
Not commit genocide, that's for goddamn sure. I'll do you one better: What goal other than genocide and occupation does Israel have in this so-called war? It has clearly and repeatedly demonstrated through its attitude towards peace deals that deposing Hamas isn't the point.
You haven't answered the question.
Okay, here's your answer: After October 7th, Israel should've ended its occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, cooperated with Palestinians and its Arab neighbors to create an independent, sovereign and democratic Palestinian state (or absorbed these regions in one binational state with equal rights for all if that's your thing), given refugees right to return or equivalent compensation to the generation wealth they were robbed of and then pushed for fair trials for all involved under international law. Notice the conspicuous lack of genocide.
Gaza was not occupied. Israel withdrew settlements in 2005.
If Gaza isn't occupied, then what's preventing it from trading with and getting aid from other countries? As a non-occupied territory, it should have control over its coastline, airspace and territorial waters.
Occupied is not the same as border control. The control was necessary because the Al Qassam Brigades and Palestinian Intifada Jihad kept attacking Israel with missiles and suicide bombers.
If it's not an occupation then do you know what it is? An act of war. Occupying a supposedly iindependent state's maritime and air space and blockading it are all acts of war. Israel has been waging war against Gaza for 20 years, keeping its people hungry, poor and scared. Replace "occupation" with "war" in my response. Happy now?
If 3 terrorists take over a bank with 50 hostages - including children - inside, do you just bomb the bank and call it a day? No, because we don't kill the innocents indiscriminately to eliminate the terrorists.
Israel is not only murdering innocent people, including children, indiscriminately, they've murdered journalists and aid workers intentionally who are reporting on their behavior and we have memos showing starvation, displacing the innocent civilians and taking control of their land is part of the plan.
The ratio of Gazan deaths isn't 50 civilians to 3 militants though. Not even remotely that ratio. You are not discussing in good faith and you avoided answering my question.
That would be a start.
Where would they go to?
The places they were from before they were gifted someone else's country?
Let them figure that out for themselves?
They have never asked displaced Palestinians where they would like to go or where they should go; well other than "away" or to the grave. Neither at the start of their colonial occupation, or throughout the years of settler colonists steady pushing the Palestinians off of the lands they are supposedly allowed to live on.
Most Israeli Jews are from the Middle East. The rest are mainly direct descendants from the Europe Holocaust (⅔ of them were rounded up because of their ethnicity and, without provocation, executed — actual genocide by UN definition).
Meanwhile in Australia this week we have Jews being doxxed by Daily Mail.
Now prosecute in international court.
Already underway but it seems in these times international agreements are seen as decorative and/or leftist tubthumping.
Always have been.
Right, but it won’t happen.
